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Tubular - what am I missing?
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Why are the pros running tubular? Is is simply because they can ride longer if there is a flat? I am ignoring the inconveniance of changing flats, or cost. I am looking at pure performance.

Rolling resistance data seems to favour clinchers, and tubless.

People rave about the comfort of a tubular. Do they allow people to have a more comfortable ride (faster due to lower impedance/suspension losses) at higher pressures (better crr)? That is my guess, but do we have data?

Is it that they can take harder cornering forces at lower riding pressures without fear of failure? Or when a bike is limited to 15lbs... are they trying to minimize rotating weight? All the above?

I figure all the folks running continental tubulars that are only available to the pros must know more than we do. Or is a few crr when you are putting out an average of 400w really no big deal, and people are just stuck in habit? And I do not fully buy the habbit explanation, because it is too competative for people to leave free watts on the table.
Last edited by: Rocket_racing: Feb 22, 19 18:11
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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Long time tubular user here that switched over to clinchers for my TT bike
Pros - yes you can ride a flat, I wouldn't unless I was going to win something. its good as far as pro cyclists to keep moving forward until the team car comes up for a wheel switch. triathlon, I just wouldn't do it.
Pure performance - clinchers that's where the R&D is happening.
yes you can run higher pressure but why would you. BRR tests up to 120 PSI, that's kinda high even for me at 200lbs
Comfort - I can't tell the difference between my Zipps wrapped in clinchers then my Dura Ace c40 tubulars as far as subtleness.
Cornering - I wouldn't say that you can hit a hard corner any faster. I rolled a tubular in a corner on a hot NC summer day..sucked..sucked real bad
Weight - the wheels are lighter, more material needed to build a clincher wheel, you wouldn't notice if you're asking
Continental tubulars are different for the Pro racers, they have a latex tube us mere mortals get butyl only option

I ride tubulars only on my road bikes, why? don't know, just a thing for me
Last edited by: mike s: Feb 22, 19 18:32
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [mike s] [ In reply to ]
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mike s wrote:

Pure performance - clinchers that's where the R&D is happening.

Yes, but probably the absolutely fastest tires are track tubulars. I wouldn't ride them on the road, though, unless it was like a prologue TT on pristine asphalt or something.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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I race on tubulars and have to me they have always felt faster. Don't forget the wheels will be lighter to your list of pros...
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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Rocket_racing wrote:
Rolling resistance data seems to favour clinchers, and tubless.

BRR never tested the Vittoria Pista Evo CS tubular, the Vittoria EVO Corsa Crono tubular, and the Veloflex Record tubular, all of which have lower CRR than the Conti Supersonic with latex tube.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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For me it's the speed in which I can change a flat with a tub.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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I ride tubular simply because the wheel sets go insanely cheap second hand.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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Rocket_racing wrote:
Why are the pros running tubular?
One more thing, since air is completely contained inside the tubular tire/tube, the risk of warping carbon brake track is significantly reduced on long technical descents because there is no high air pressure exerting an outward force against the rim sidewall. I haven't heard of a single carbon tubular failure due to heat related issue.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
BRR never tested the Vittoria Pista Evo CS tubular, the Vittoria EVO Corsa Crono tubular, and the Veloflex Record tubular, all of which have lower CRR than the Conti Supersonic with latex tube.

Data?
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
For me it's the speed in which I can change a flat with a tub.

Exactly, this^^^^^

Team Zoot-Texas, AltRED, and Pickle Juice
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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That is an interesting point. I hadn't thought of that aspect...
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [trimike77] [ In reply to ]
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What about mixing and matching. I just got front clincher that I really wanted for my speed concept but now there's some great deals out there on tubular discs. How much of a pain would that be to run a clincher front of a tubular rear in the event of a flat. Of course really only run the disc a couple times a year during races.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
RichardL wrote:
BRR never tested the Vittoria Pista Evo CS tubular, the Vittoria EVO Corsa Crono tubular, and the Veloflex Record tubular, all of which have lower CRR than the Conti Supersonic with latex tube.


Data?

Here: http://www.biketechreview.com/...ire_testing_rev9.pdf

The top five tubulars are faster than the good old Conti Supersonics 20.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
rruff wrote:
RichardL wrote:
BRR never tested the Vittoria Pista Evo CS tubular, the Vittoria EVO Corsa Crono tubular, and the Veloflex Record tubular, all of which have lower CRR than the Conti Supersonic with latex tube.


Data?

Here: http://www.biketechreview.com/...ire_testing_rev9.pdf

The top five tubulars are faster than the good old Conti Supersonics 20.

Um... this is 2010 data. A lot has changed since the days of horse and buggy.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Sure, why not? As long as you don't mind carrying a folded up spare tubular in addition to your normal flat kit.
Tufo makes some really thin tubulars that I believe will fold up almost as small as a tube.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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TriguyBlue wrote:
I ride tubular simply because the wheel sets go insanely cheap second hand.

Looking at prices on line, shows that you are right about wheel sets being cheaper and lighter too.

Tubular tire price points are low enough. I only had tubular tires or sew ups back in the day because wheel and tire were performance wise far superior to what we had for clinchers.

They are faster to change; yet, it's not like a person is gluing the tire back on out on the road.

Except what do you do with a tubular tires that you flat? Do you open up the tubular, repair and then sew it back up?

So is their longevity less and cost higher than clinchers if the inner tube in a sew up is not replaceable?

Thank you for letting us know how you manage your sew ups.

Indoor Triathlete
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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IT wrote:
TriguyBlue wrote:
I ride tubular simply because the wheel sets go insanely cheap second hand.


Looking at prices on line, shows that you are right about wheel sets being cheaper and lighter too.

Tubular tire price points are low enough. I only had tubular tires or sew ups back in the day because wheel and tire were performance wise far superior to what we had for clinchers.

They are faster to change; yet, it's not like a person is gluing the tire back on out on the road.

Except what do you do with a tubular tires that you flat? Do you open up the tubular, repair and then sew it back up?

So is their longevity less and cost higher than clinchers if the inner tube in a sew up is not replaceable?

Thank you for letting us know how you manage your sew ups.

I wouldn't use prices as a deciding factor......I mean, how often are you buying new wheelsets? If you feel you'd be better off with clinchers, I'd spend the extra few hundred.

Your question about how to manage tubular flats......I used them off and on for 20+ years. I found that -most- of the time I had gotten enough miles out of them that it wasn't worth repairing. The couple flats I got on newer tires, at the time I was getting my tubies for about $40 US (Conti comps) and it didn't seem worth the hassle to try to fix them, and probably end up with a lumpy tire.

I switched to clinchers about 4 years ago and will probably stick with them for good, as sexy as I think tubulars are.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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Rocket_racing wrote:


Um... this is 2010 data. A lot has changed since the days of horse and buggy.


What hasn't changed since 2010 is physics. And a Crr of 0.0022 is FAF. The closest clincher is the CS, which tested at 0.00231 (according to BRR @ 120PSI).

If you see one, you wouldn't question them being faster. They're like condoms with a layer of tread painted on. Super fragile. As I mentioned above, I wouldn't use them off wood. It seems unlikely they'd survive even a single brake lock-up or skid.
Last edited by: trail: Feb 23, 19 13:49
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
IT wrote:
TriguyBlue wrote:
I ride tubular simply because the wheel sets go insanely cheap second hand.


I switched to clinchers about 4 years ago and will probably stick with them for good, as sexy as I think tubulars are.

That was a hard part for me too. Tubulars are so cool. Clinchers leave me filling like I'm riding a bike to work. Maybe for the sake of motivation, I could stop riding clinchers, sell them and switch to tubulars.

Indoor Triathlete
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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"Except what do you do with a tubular tires that you flat?"


Since I cut the tire off with a razor blade, I toss them in the trash.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
Here: http://www.biketechreview.com/...ire_testing_rev9.pdf

The top five tubulars are faster than the good old Conti Supersonics 20.

I sent Al that SS20. I think it was the newer Black Chili tread. You are right, some of those old tubulars tested quite well.

Tom has some more up to date data, and tubulars don't fair so well. https://docs.google.com/.../edit#gid=2047093726

Not so good on BRR either, looking at the Corsa Speeds: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...a-speed-tubular-2017
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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Rocket_racing wrote:
Um... this is 2010 data. A lot has changed since the days of horse and buggy.
Doesn't mean the data is bad and no longer valid. It is still valid. The old Conti Supersonic is reportedly faster than the current version.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Tom has some more up to date data, and tubulars don't fair so well. https://docs.google.com/.../edit#gid=2047093726

Not so good on BRR either, looking at the Corsa Speeds: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...a-speed-tubular-2017

Not sure what glue Tom used, but BRR used Continental glue, which is not the same as Vittoria Mastik One that Al used. There is a difference between Conti glue and Mastik One in terms of crr.
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
Rocket_racing wrote:
Um... this is 2010 data. A lot has changed since the days of horse and buggy.
Doesn't mean the data is bad and no longer valid. It is still valid. The old Conti Supersonic is reportedly faster than the current version.

Do you have data to support that?
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Re: Tubular - what am I missing? [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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I still ride tubs because that's what I have and can't afford new wheels.
You can also find tubular tires and wheels relatively cheap these days.
Also, Vittoria has come out with a new glue, Mastik Pro, which speeds up the gluing process a great deal- a set of wheels in an hour- and cleans up with water.

https://www.biketiresdirect.com/...ODca7LxoCbTUQAvD_BwE

It cleans up with soap and water and comes in handy single serve packets.
The only downside is you don't get the glue high anymore :)

As far as mixing and matching, that's on you.
I've done it, but only if I have to. Any weight saving is negated by having to carry supplies for 2 different wheels. I've had good luck with both Vittoria and Hutchinson sealants, but as someone said above, Tufo makes a tub that folds down super small. It's a crap tire, but it'll get you home.
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