I couldn't agree more. I don't think triathlon should be a team sport. That I am aware the type of triathlons we do at the recreational level are non-drafting everywhere. Only the ITU pros are draft-legal. Something to keep in mind: The primary reason why there is draft-legal racing at all is because the TV producers know it makes for more compelling visual images.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Keep triathlon draft free. Otherwise it's a run with a funny warm up. That said, what took everyone so long on the ITU circuit to realize they could work together and put a gazelle into the position to win? Think of the beautiful TV image of several guys towing their designated runner all wearing the same outfit. Oh wait, we've seen that in the Tour de France. Damn, wrong sport.

For rent: one swimmer/biker (me). Cost: cover my expenses and share in the winnings.

Indeed, Tom, it does make for better TV, but the main reason was the total confusion and chaos that was going on after World Cup races in the last year or so of no-drafting. Often the top 3 - 4 of the top 5 where DQ'd. There were appeals going on. Lawsuits threatened. Massive agruments amongst athletes and officials. The final results would not be known for hours after the race finished and they would have little or no TV footage of the "winner". The ITU in their wisdom decided to rid themselves of this headache and say, fine, it's swim/bike/run, as you like and the first across the line is the winner. Full stop!

Now, there are those( many) who will say, "this is not triathlon!" However, they are still swimming, biking and running doing all three sports back-to-back. Is the dynamic of the race different? Yes, it is! The importance of the swim has risen dramatically. The importance of the bike has diminished a bit, but it still comes down to the run. You always had to be a good runner to do well in this sport, short or long, so nothing has really changed. As for the bike, the total skill/fitness package that is required now, is on the whole, higher than it was before when it was really very one dimensional - all you had to do was put your head down and hammer.

Just my observations from many years of observing.

Anyway, I know that people have very strong opinions on this and this thread will likely bear that out.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

When the ITU made the move to allowing drafting on the bike everyone said that this was going to happen. That a team made up of Ian Thorpe and Lance Armstrong where some how going to be able to drag a Kenyan to the start of the run for a convincing win!

However, it's taken almost 10 years for this to formally take shape in the form of the Kinesys team. I suspect that it may have gone on informally in the past. There has been some suspicion that the Aussie Men and Women, with there depth at the top of the ITU rankings would employ such tactics, but the results in many World Cup triathlons do not bear this out. By an large the racing is still very selfish and individual, despite the allowance of the drafting on the bike. Simon Whitfield had no "help" in winning the Gold medal in Sydney in the triathlon.

I am surprised that true team racing was not started sooner. It will be interseting to see what the impact of the Kinesys team is and how they or individual members of the team do.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

>>I am surprised that true team racing was not started sooner. It will be interseting to see what the impact of the Kinesys team is and how they or individual members of the team do.<<

Treasure Island should be interesting since it is part of the USA Triathlon Race to Athens Triathlon Series, which is also the USA Triathlon Elite National Championship race, and all the big guns should be there. I hope they (KINeSYS) kick butt. A bunch of really nice guys who are shaking things up, within the parameters of their sport. And they will tell you---ITU triathlon is very different than the triathlon you and I do.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I don't see any problem at all with teams of athletes working together to bring one of their teammates to the finish line first. I don't see any problem with triathlon as a team sport -- either as a relay team or as a group effort in all three events. It's just a different kind of competition, and should be treated as such.

In fact, I think it would be far better to formalize and seperate team competitions from individual competitions, and in team events give an award to the team, as well as the individual winner. It works well in cycling and in football, why not in triathlon? Having team competitions would probably bring bigger sponsors, bigger prize money, and more press -- all good things to grow the sport.

If ITU or Lifetime Fitness or the IOC really wanted to do elite level triathlons as individual competitions, they could have each athlete start 3-5 minutes apart, and run races like a time trial, with the same 15 second passing rule on the bike that we have in AG races. Doesn't make for very interesting TV, though, and it's going to be tougher for racers to bring out their top performances without direct competition.

For the rest of us, in age-group races you currently have the option of either competing as an individual or on a relay team, and the standings reflect individual winner and relay team winners seperately. As they should -- very different kinds of events. It would be very possible to also do amateur "team triathlons" on the same course -- just limit the number of teams and have them start before the first wave of individual age-groupers so you don't have to worry about an AG'er drafting off a team. The team race would be draft legal, the AG race would not. And there would be seperate standings for the different formats.

Makes me want to go organize a race just to see if anyone signs up for the team option!

Lee

I think teams are fine, however, I don't see how this plan can work all the way through the Olympics. Yes, it may get someone TO the Olympics, but once they are there it is everyman for themselves, and if they were drug (literally) into qualifying they will get shot out the back at it will look very bad.

So, while I applaud the effort, and understand how it will help win most races, it isn't for the big show. Since it seems to me that ITU is just a entry ticket to the big show I don't understand the logic.

My real hope is that the team strategy will screw ITU up so badly they will have to come up with another option besides drafting. If the best athletes can't win anymore due to team efforts, then we will have a mess.

We just need ITU races on SUPER wide roads and stagger rules. Perhaps airports?

And then there is Barb Lindquist who wins whether it is drafting or not. Sometimes it pays to just be damn good.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

I agree that ITU races are still triathlons, not everyone can hold on to the draft in the swim and bike thingy to give them a podium shot in the run race. It will probably become a team sport (seems like it is evolving that way) and in my opinion that might not be all that bad. If that's what TV wants thats what they will get because that's where the money and popularity is or will evolve. The racers may be forced to form alliances, teams or become superhuman.

Lets just keep it separate from triathlons that are not draft legal.

>>Yes, it may get someone TO the Olympics, but once they are there it is everyman for themselves<<

I don't know about that. I think it would depend on the make up of your team.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I too am surprised that this didn't happen sooner (and that there hasn't been more talk about it here). I still don't understand the dynamics of the draft-legal bike leg. It seems to me like there should have been deal-making and team-building right from the start rather than the stupid "everyone sit back, finish with the pack and wait for the run" thing that has been happening. Why don't two or three good swimmers agree to work together on the swim, open up a lead and then hammer the bike (again, working together) and see if they have enough left to post a decent run split? Why don't we see suicide breakaways that pick up 2 or 3 minutes (except they wouldn't be as suicidal in a 25 mile bike leg as they are in a 100 mile road race)? I can't believe everyone's cycling abilities are that equal. The only thing I can think is that it takes a lot to run a what, 32:00? 10K. Nobody who's a born and bred cyclist can do it and not even a semi-gifted runner can do it if they just went balls out on the bike.

The swim should make the bike leg of an ITU race more interesting than a stand alone bike race. Instead, the reverse seems to have happened. I don't get it. If Kinesys is successful, maybe that will change and that would definitely be a good thing.

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Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.

I hear so much rhetoric about how "drafting is good for growing the sport." Growing the sport for whom, exactly? Certainly not the age-group individual who doesn't have a team to train and race with. How many age-group football leagues are out there? How many people play age-group baseball?

There is no denying that professional Triathlon is a completely different world from non-drafting racing. Same sport, it just uses the same three disciplines in a completely different manner. A professional would be stupid not to recognize the advantages of working as a team. It will soon be commonplace. So what? Can we not see the difference and be OK with it?

To be on one side or the other is like saying formula I car racing should be the only kind of racing allowed.

Let's just NOT confuse the issues. As the sport began, the "best" racer at the end of the day, was he/she who did all three individually, and crossed the finish line first. If one must judge who's best, it will never be a drafting athlete.

I think to let the media dictate the direction of the sport because they can't make it sell without the team concept however, is bordering on the "it's OK to "fix" a game show or script the "reality" show, because it sells advertising" which they do anyway. "Team A is going to win this one today with Team B challenging a close second, because it makes for better TV" just might be next. And if you don't think it can't or won't happen, wake up! Then where will the sport be?

If you are involved in the business end of Triathlon, you might want to re-think letting networks and big business drive the bus. Do you really think it is going to put more money in your pocket? The more commercial Triathlon becomes, the less athletes we are apt to have, not more. More professional athletes, but certainly not more age-groupers. And more large corporations getting involved, running Ma and Pa out of business.

We better be careful of what we wish for. We might just get it. Growth is good, but.... at what cost?

But then I'm an old Geezer, so I'm probably too old fashioned.

Hey all,

I've been lurking for a while, but have now decided to take the plunge.

I was thinking about the last post - and didn't Simon Whitfield, certainly one of the best draft-legal racers around, prove that he could race against the best non-drafting racers at the Lifetime Fitness race? I think a draft-legal racer can be the best around at the shorter distances.

Please excuse any typos, poor grammar, or whatever else - I'm actually a little nervous about my first post! Thanks.

Point taken. You did have to qualify it "shorter distance," however. That changes the dynamic yet again.

Yes although the rumour mill after Lifetime fitness said that there was considerable bunch riding going on (legal drafting?)

Personally I think that drafting has really marred the sport, and placed a lot different emphasis on the bike, don't get me wrong these guys can still bike, but its not as important.

My suggestions for making the sport more interesting and lessening the importance of the swim:

Number 1: have multi race formats- Swim bike run swim bike run swim bike run: go through 3 times continuously with a 300-400 10km 3 km distance.

Number 2: Tour de France style Time Trials, 1-2 minute gaps, top seeded. ranked athlete is the last to leave.

Number 3: Similar to Surf Lifesaving where they have the Ironman involving a swim, surf ski and board paddle, but the order of the even is randomly drawn before the race. So we could have a bike run swim, or run swim bike etc.

Number 4: current race format

If the Itu circuit incorporated all of these formats depending on course and weather conditions (colder water temps would see a wetsuit swim ie numbers 2 and 4) we would get exiting unpredictable races, and the strongest tri athete would win.

Steve

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------Yes although the rumour mill after Lifetime fitness said that there was considerable bunch riding going on (legal drafting?) <<

From p. 42 of the new Inside Tri magazine (October 2003):

It was a narrow course, and there was drafting," said DeBoom [Tony]. "The chase pack finished all at once, just like an ITU race."

Walton was perhaps even more frustrated. "If those ITU guys actually biked a hard time trial on an open road, they would never be able to run a sub-31 minute 10km. As far as I'm concerned, the only non-drafting man who beat me was Simon Lessing.

Top USA Triathlon official Charlie Crawford was discouraged afterward. "A camera motorcycle stopped on the course near Lake Harriet and we lost the lead pack for about a mile afterward," said Crawford. "Then from mile 18 through 19 we got caught, unable to get back to the front as the amateurs entered the course coming the other way. I saw they [pro men] were too close, but I was trapped too far back and unable to make calls.
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OK, I Charlie said there was drafting, you know there was drafting!

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

From what I read (triathlete and inside tri) there was a lot of drafting going on at lifetime fitness with the male chase pack. So I am not sure if you could say that the itu men won in a non-drafting race? One thing is for sure, Barb Lindquist can win in both formats.

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Kestrel Syndicate
Macca Fan Club

I was reading the course description on the 2004 olympic web site. I lived in the area that they are holding the triathlon in for 3 years. The hilly bike course will probably breakup a fair amount of the drafting that we saw in Sydney. I'm sure most of the pros can/will still draft in the "mountainous" area, but I can see the stronger cyclist really getting a boost here.

ATHENS 2004 Triathlon

The sport of triathlon in the 2004 Olympics will be staged in the wider area of the Municipality of Vouliagmeni in southern Athens. The swimming will take place at one of the most famous beaches, Oceanida. The water quality is excellent and the beach has all the necessary facilities. The start will take place from a floating pontoon.
The cycling and running will be held on the “mountainous” side of the municipality, in scenery where the mountains and sea alternate along the whole route.
The cycling route will have intensive technical characteristics with constant ascents and descents, and spectators will line the whole route. Only motorcyclists carrying camera operators and judges will be allowed to enter the competitive course of the cycling section. The running will be staged in three laps of 3.3 km. As is required, there is provision for water stations for the athletes every 850 m. During cycling, there will be 6 pits with wheels (wheel stations) should someone get a puncture.

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- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
P. J. O'Rourke

The article points out one problem - the Kinesys support team would never qualify for elite level ITU racing because they are pure swimmer-bikers. The dynamic would change considerably when you get to the ITU/Olympic level. For the men, Country Teams like Australia and England would be basically unbeatable - not many people stronger than Macca and Walton on the swim-bike, and the Aussies have loads of runners. Canada and the US have one or two men at that level and thus would be disadvantaged.

I'm Canadian, and like the fact that Whitfield won basically on his own, but if some of these super teams did get organized, it'll be a cold day in the deep south before North America would see another gold medal.

"Working within the rules;" is too kind. Triathlon isn't a team sport and KINeSYS is exploiting the letter of the rules. The draft-legal format for elite level races might well be merited. TV coverage attracts commercial interest which leads (perhaps) to more races and better equipment available to all of us. And besides, who wants to toil away in a sport no-one ever heard of. But this 'team' concept is an affront to the rest of the sport that races solo. There was outrage at Formula 1 when Michael Schumacher's team mate pulled aside in front of the finish line to let him take the win. This isn't any different. I'd be very seriously hacked off if a pack these jokers passed me on the bike or run. Just goes to show that some people will do about anything to finish at the front.

I ditto your opinion Rich (and, others)... I made this very same argument the first year Triathlon was admitted to the Olympics. It does seem that a team approach would be more appropriate for a draft legal race. In fact, I think it would change the dynamics of the draft legal triathlons significantly. And, the change would be mostly for the good.

Of course, from what I can gather, these issues are currently being consider (and have been) by countries as they prepare for the next Olympics. It seems only appropriate that is be legitimized by the ITU. I would prefer to see the "rabbits" receive the gold on a equal standing as the winners. More simply put, (IMHO) draft legal triathlons are not an individual sport as the outcome seems to indicate. A lot of times, the winner wins mostly because of efforts made by other triathletes.

I think it is time to call a spade - a spade. As a result, it would also make for a more interesting race.

FWIW Joe Moya

Team racing was used by the French to set Olivier Marceau on his first world title in 2000 in Oz.
Bignet and (someone else) caught Waldo with Marceau, who did minimal work on the bike (even though he took some pulls as he is a strong biker) but was definitely the fresher off the bike.

The team sent to the Olympics was the Olympics was the same but it didn't work then (big X on his back...don't let the guy go...he broke away anyway, with Stoltz I believe but they didn't get enough lead)

In Oz, the reason it will not work (I was still living there during the olympics) is that there is no athlete really far better than the others, they all can win....
and so noone really wants to make the effort for the others. in 2000, Waldo, Robbo, Miles all had important wins, so did some that didn't make the team like chris hill, macca etc...
a bit like the italian cycling team, that is never a team because too many can win (except this year where bettini was the best by far and last year where the course was made for cippo)

Train wreck you could make the argumentabout F1 being the only car racing allowed. PaulF I think you missed the point. Drafting is allowed and therefore if you and some of your mates work together and ride half the field off your wheels it allowed.
Age groupers are not allowed to draft except when passing and then you only have 15 seconds to get past the person in front.
I'm surprised at how few times countries could have athletes work together to ensure an extra spot in the olympic field by winning Pan Am's or a few other races and did not.
The team aspect only goes so far though. To get into the olympics you have to be ranked in the top 100 or so in the world and your country might only have 1 or 2 slots. If I was selecting athletes and knew athlete X always finished top ten b/c he had 2 or 3 pull him up to the front and those others were not in the olympics neither would he be.
Like the ITU racing or not, those are some phenomenal athletes who can go to ANY short course race anywhere in the world drafting or not and finish in the front.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

My only experience with draft legal racing is at the Military World Championships, but I suspect that these races might present the greatest examples of team racing. I’ve been retired from the Air Force for a couple of years now, but the last three military world championships in which I competed had similar dynamics.

The French always had two or three incredible swimmers and the first pack would be a small one dominated by the French. The main pack would usually trail the super-fish by about a minute. The French members of the main pack would ride to the front to "take their turns," but it became clear that their main interest was in slowing the chase pack. I think it was an example of team racing at its best. The French team members all knew their roles and the ones who blocked in the main pack were somewhat effective. If they could keep the second pack at bay, then the French-dominated first pack would get a healthy head start on the run and set up a victory for the French team (which was based on the total time for the top three finishers from each country.)

It never worked. Everyone in the main pack (at least those at the front) figured out what was going on and we stopped letting the French go to the front. (Communications in the main pack were always interesting with people speaking so many different languages.) The years I did those races, the main pack always caught the front guys before T2. After they were swallowed up, the pace would always slow noticeably, as the runners got ready for their showdown.

As a strong swimmer/strong biker/weak runner, I’m predictably against draft legal races, but I have to admit that those military races were really great experiences. Being a strong cyclist, I had no problem handling the pace of the pack, but there were times when I was scared to death. When it came to bike handling skills, I was totally outclassed by the European riders--especially on the descents. The pace of the pack could change at any instant, like any bike race I suppose. Sometimes the pack grew swallowing up everyone, and sometimes it split up depending upon the pace and the terrain. But typically the first group into T2 would be 40+ strong within a few seconds of one another. Those races were so exciting I almost forgot that I hate draft legal racing!