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Triathlon National All-American Standards
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I was looking at the Masters All-American track and field standards by age group, thinking some of these qualifying times would be good targets to strive for and target my training to (and I can then get a certificate and patch)! Which brings me to the idea of establishing standards by age group in the various triathlon distances. If you achieve the time required by the standard in a sanctioned race, then you would submit your information to the governing body and you would receive something like an 'All-American in Olympic Distance Triathlon' honor or similar. I don't know how they determine the track standards, probably some % of top times, and they update them regularly. While it's not a big deal, a lot of triathletes are achievement oriented by nature, so it just gives something extra to shoot for.
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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If only we had such a system.
Last edited by: jaretj: Nov 12, 18 13:57
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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The issue I see and I say this all the time when I hear people talk about “records” or certifications.

In T&F the track doesn’t lie. Your track in Philly is the same track in San Jose. But there isn’t really standards for tri and it’s because it’s really hard to verify 3 different courses and for what again?

They do have AA given by federation for whatever top X percent of your AG. So I think it’s just hard and basically impractical to put “certification” process as part of RD duties so that then you can go after X standard per distance etc.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
If only we had such a system.

I think H2O fun just rolled over in his metaphorical ST grave.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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There used to be to some degree..for instance lifetime Oly series 2:10 would get you into elite wave (more like cat 1, i think pros had their own wave). Would be nice if usat was useful and held up course distance certificates when 'sanctioning' , otherwise don't know what we are paying for otger than insurance
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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In addition the course accuracy, this would also cause athletes and RD’s to find or make a really easy and fast courses. So then we’d have an issue like Boston has with so many people trying to qualify on downhill courses

Matt
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
If only we had such a system.

You win the "internets" for today!!
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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The irony being that Boston itself is ineligible for world best rankings because it is a downhill course.
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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Pun_Times wrote:
In addition the course accuracy, this would also cause athletes and RD’s to find or make a really easy and fast courses. So then we’d have an issue like Boston has with so many people trying to qualify on downhill courses

Require the finish is within 1km of the start will prevent that. Point to point tri races are more costly too
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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vonschnapps wrote:
I was looking at the Masters All-American track and field standards by age group, thinking some of these qualifying times would be good targets to strive for and target my training to (and I can then get a certificate and patch)! Which brings me to the idea of establishing standards by age group in the various triathlon distances. If you achieve the time required by the standard in a sanctioned race, then you would submit your information to the governing body and you would receive something like an 'All-American in Olympic Distance Triathlon' honor or similar. I don't know how they determine the track standards, probably some % of top times, and they update them regularly. While it's not a big deal, a lot of triathletes are achievement oriented by nature, so it just gives something extra to shoot for.


I am a little confused since this is already a thing:
https://rankings.usatriathlon.org/...ngs/NationalRankings


Standardizing courses and times cannot be possible due to the variations others have talked about here. The USAT system is far from perfect but it works reasonably well to level-set.
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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I am a little confused since this is already a thing:

---

See post #2






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
I am a little confused since this is already a thing:

---

See post #2

Sure but I was trying to be a little more helpful than a flippant, but funny, response in pink
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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g_lev wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
I am a little confused since this is already a thing:

---

See post #2

Sure but I was trying to be a little more helpful than a flippant, but funny, response in pink

Flippant? You say I was flippant? Well yes, but the OP has been around for many years and I thought he was joking around.
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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It is a little funky. You should race a championship for AA status. NCAA T&F top 8 at the championships are All American

USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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vonschnapps wrote:
I was looking at the Masters All-American track and field standards by age group, thinking some of these qualifying times would be good targets to strive for and target my training to (and I can then get a certificate and patch)!


The Masters track standards are kind of a joke, I would say you would need to be able to run faster than these standards for the run leg of a tri to make USAT AA.
http://nationalmastersnews.com/aas/standards_men.jpg

20:59 for a M40-44 Road 5K
18:10 for a M40-44 Track 5K (why are these 3 minutes different?)

I think these lists have to be wrong, 80% Age Graded score is the standard for National level masters performance. A 17:08 5K is 80% Age grade score for a 40 year old male, which is a little more reasonable, but still seems too easy for "All American" status.
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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g_lev wrote:
vonschnapps wrote:
I was looking at the Masters All-American track and field standards by age group, thinking some of these qualifying times would be good targets to strive for and target my training to (and I can then get a certificate and patch)! Which brings me to the idea of establishing standards by age group in the various triathlon distances. If you achieve the time required by the standard in a sanctioned race, then you would submit your information to the governing body and you would receive something like an 'All-American in Olympic Distance Triathlon' honor or similar. I don't know how they determine the track standards, probably some % of top times, and they update them regularly. While it's not a big deal, a lot of triathletes are achievement oriented by nature, so it just gives something extra to shoot for.


I am a little confused since this is already a thing:
https://rankings.usatriathlon.org/...ngs/NationalRankings


Standardizing courses and times cannot be possible due to the variations others have talked about here. The USAT system is far from perfect but it works reasonably well to level-set.

Here is the short fall of the usat system. If you want to test yourself, you cannot do it on your own. With USATF, USA swimming, you can measure a course yourself outside an official event and shoot for a time to see if it's worthy signing up for an official event
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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That's not a shortfall, that's just an reality of your sport when you play in an "unconventional" field of play. This idea that we need "standards" to me misses the point of triathlon- S-B-R. Because a sprint in Texas may be different than a sprint in Montana, etc, but a swimming pool is a swimming pool and a track is a track, really the only difference is going to be really high altitude. But hell you can have a sprint triathlon in different parts of your own town and it likely creates difference race conditions.

And in regards to certifying courses- if you cant come up with a true and reliable method to certify the swim course, then your certification of the bike/run course is sorta meaningless, unless your only talking about those specific events but the S and overall times would be meaningless to "compare". So as much as people crave for "certification", I'll be the anti-certification guy as I already see RD's have enough on their plates, they don't have the likely time nor resources to do a full on "certification" process. When you put on 1 single sport event- sure you can do all the bells and whistles for said event, when you have to do 3 different seperate events all in 1 event, then your priorities/abilities quickly change.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I'm with you. Beyond swim, bike and run, how do you standardize and certify the transition distances. I've been in transitions anywhere from 50 yards to more than 600. And the transition run could be through deep sand, on grass or on pavement. Trying to standardize and certify triathlons just doesn't make sense.
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
I'm with you. Beyond swim, bike and run, how do you standardize and certify the transition distances. I've been in transitions anywhere from 50 yards to more than 600. And the transition run could be through deep sand, on grass or on pavement. Trying to standardize and certify triathlons just doesn't make sense.

You can then compare by individual split times, if a course has certified distances.
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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But as the point I'm alluding to and Huff points to....If your wanting standards in 1 leg or 2 legs (bike/run), you have to have a standard in EVERYTHING for it to be able to "compare". And that's the part that I think many lose out on. You want your standards, do you realize what your asking of to get those standards that you can compare.

Nothing has to be done for a track or swim meet. Just make a note if it's a yard or meter pool and then you know the standard. But we cant as a sport put that type of specifics on the RD and make it work because we are the complete opposite of an "defined" course. It's far to different locations, specifics.

IE- there is an race in my area that is a local favorite swim location....You know what the swim exit is? A ladder onto a pier....like literally only a few people at a time can get up the ladder, now granted it's only like a 3-4 step ladder, but that's the things about our sport. Their transition is less than 100yd from the lake. I've seen other locations that have to run 1/2 mile to get to transition. So if you truly are wanting a standard, understand what that truly encompasses when we are discussing a 3 sport (4 sports really w/ T1/T2) that is out in the open. So I think it's a bit unfair to say that we aren't comparable when you then compare it to a single sport like track or swimming who has very defined boundaries for it's field of play.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Nov 14, 18 14:10
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
I'm with you. Beyond swim, bike and run, how do you standardize and certify the transition distances. I've been in transitions anywhere from 50 yards to more than 600. And the transition run could be through deep sand, on grass or on pavement. Trying to standardize and certify triathlons just doesn't make sense.


You can then compare by individual split times, if a course has certified distances.

Even certified distances do not tell the story. For the swim you would need to distinguish between salt water with wetsuit, freshwater with wetsuit, saltwater no wetsuit, and fresh water no wetsuit. And then you have the complications of loop versus point to point transitions. E.g., for road races, a point to point with a trailing wind above a couple mph isn't legit. A course with more than a certain net elevation drop isn't legit (e.g., Boston itself is ineligible for world bests due to net downhill. There are too many factors involved. And the principle of "be careful of what you measure" would also be important here. How many people on ST have complained that folks don't want to race hilly courses? And yet this proposal wants to establish a carrot (All American) for each distance that will have everyone looking for the best water conditions, the flattest bike, and the flattest run with the fewest turns. Let it go.
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
synthetic wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
I'm with you. Beyond swim, bike and run, how do you standardize and certify the transition distances. I've been in transitions anywhere from 50 yards to more than 600. And the transition run could be through deep sand, on grass or on pavement. Trying to standardize and certify triathlons just doesn't make sense.


You can then compare by individual split times, if a course has certified distances.

Even certified distances do not tell the story. For the swim you would need to distinguish between salt water with wetsuit, freshwater with wetsuit, saltwater no wetsuit, and fresh water no wetsuit. And then you have the complications of loop versus point to point transitions. E.g., for road races, a point to point with a trailing wind above a couple mph isn't legit. A course with more than a certain net elevation drop isn't legit (e.g., Boston itself is ineligible for world bests due to net downhill. There are too many factors involved. And the principle of "be careful of what you measure" would also be important here. How many people on ST have complained that folks don't want to race hilly courses? And yet this proposal wants to establish a carrot (All American) for each distance that will have everyone looking for the best water conditions, the flattest bike, and the flattest run with the fewest turns. Let it go.

No. Many do it for individual splits. Tri courses used to be decently measured, and time differences not much between races . Now that I see RD,s with no care, that I see people post 10k PR when the course was really 8. Also look at IM Texas bike records. People do care
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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There are no IM bike records. People can claim them all the want, but without certification it's just a claim. And even if individual segments were certified which I do not believe should be the case, that's like tracking what time people ran the first 3 miles in a marathon ... who gives a flying F.
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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I think people care but not to the degree that it matters. In that in running when you go after "records" it's done with such precision and care and it's a big deal. But we as a sport never really cared all that much for the records. Sure we marveled at them, but hell wasn't the Kona run record including transition time for what 20+ years until it got corrected? Like we've never been "precise" with things from the start.

Now if you were to tell me that we cared about records and splits from the beginning of our sport, I'd be in your camp. But I've not once in my 100+ races of WTS ever once heard what the ITU swim/bike/run course records are. I've heard them say they can run X split or swim Y split, but not once have I heard them say "the record is x:xx".

I've heard it really only within LC racing, and then we find out that records can be made on a 94mi bike course....it's a joke. So to make it not become a joke and turn it into some "standard", I think that jennie is out the bottle, in that it's an non-issue now. So that to make it an issue you run into a lot of issues that I think your not willing to consider. So as I said when you start talking "standards" you have to either go all in on those standards or your missing the whole point of making the standard in the 1st place.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Triathlon National All-American Standards [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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Actually certifying a course is a pretty pain in the ass process, so I'm all for running or swimming having precise measurements. I grew up a runner so in good faith I know pretty much every run record there is, etc etc. But coming to triathlon 10+ years ago, not once have I heard how fast the olympic distance triathlon record is. The only records I've ever heard in our sport is IM distance records, the splits and the overall time which I've always heard had issue with at Roth because it was *short*?

Now am I excusing RD's from doing their basic job of coming up with an reasonable close to what they prescribed course, no. I'm all for RD's saying their 5k and it being pretty damn close to 5k. It's a huge pet peeve of mine to be *that* off of what you prescribed as the course. That's laziness on the part of the RD, I'm just not going to push for there to be a precise standard that has to be followed in order to make it an sanctioned event.
Now maybe they should if you want to make it an "record" but for sanctioning- hell no. That's far too costly of a process and with the caveat that if you do 1 course, you have to do the rest of the courses within your race, right? You can't just say we want the run course verified but not the bike or run, or you'll have a very weird process there.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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