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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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thoughts...how about question:

could you please post images on each bike at same yaw angle while pedalling so we can see how the positions might vary between bikes? it is obvious they do to a degree, esp tactical with non-angles arms. IMO images help a lot when looking at the runs as a whole
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Having recently bought a Ventum One, I really felt sour upon first look at these results. Then I quickly remembered, it's the smoothest ride of any of the many bikes I have ridden. I'll take the comfort over 112 miles.

Salton Sea Triathlon Club
“I swim to get to the bike. I run because nobody gives a shit about aquabike.”
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
It's kind of counterintuitive, but the time differences actually stay pretty stable.

i doubt this, for 2 reasons. first, time-on-course is linear while the effect of drag at increasingly higher speeds is not. second, the mean apparent yaw changes as the rider slows. maybe david will come on later, when he gets up, and explain why you're right and i'm not.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
5. Peak aero has arrived. It is going to take something crazy to save more than 2-3 watts over the P5s. What does this mean for the P6, SC gen 3,...?

I'd guess continued better storage, maybe disc brakes, and ease to work on...
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Really really well done by you and your team. They will try but its going to be difficult for the armchairs to quarterback this one. Congrats on the finish product!
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
kileyay wrote:
It's kind of counterintuitive, but the time differences actually stay pretty stable.


i doubt this, for 2 reasons. first, time-on-course is linear while the effect of drag at increasingly higher speeds is not. second, the mean apparent yaw changes as the rider slows. maybe david will come on later, when he gets up, and explain why you're right and i'm not.

He already spoke about it a little here but yeah there is some variation but it's not nearly as much as some measure like watts obviously.

But yeah I'll let him answer. He did the model with the different ability level riders at Chattanooga and maybe some of the others as well.
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So it sounds like after all of this the choice should primarily be based on fit and price- with pretty much everything else be negligibly equal? It's like an argument over which is better, a Ferrari or a Lamborghini- most can not afford either- all would and should accept a gift of both- and both are pretty damn fast all things considered.

"There are two ways to slide easily through life- to believe everything and to doubt everything- both ways save us from thinking "- Korzbyski
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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Now that Kiley proved Cervelos data without all the additional bottles and Gus attached to other bikes, will Tom A. begin to reconsider disc brakes?

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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Nope! Set up a tri bike with disc brakes and 1x the horror.
Last edited by: BMANX: Jun 30, 17 8:07
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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In watching the testing - great care was done to make sure the riders position was as close to perfect for every run at every angle. Really remarkable really how well he rode all day long. The charts with the error bars showing baseline vs end of day comparisons were spot on +/- 1 watt at 30 mph.

The only difference in position, as you and the report points out, was the tilt on the extensions. The Tactical was about 10 mm lower at the tips. This probably cost us a little - but that issue has been solved with our new tilt spacer that will come standard with the bike and used in conjunction with the standard extension set up as well as our new round tube extension hardware that will work with any extension tube.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
Last edited by: dkennison: Jun 30, 17 8:07
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
He did the model with the different ability level riders at Chattanooga and maybe some of the others as well.

i'd like to see what he came up with.

also, it seems to me that the andean was tested without its top-tube storage. i have a problem with the andean's chosen aerobar, and i'm building up an andean now with a different bar that requires me to remove that storage. so i get that.

but i suspect that that top tube storage is quite aero, and maybe even more aero than having it removed. i think when you test a bike configured that way against the other bikes with some other sort of top tube storage put on there, the results might be different.

to me, the biggest difference in set up between the test as you did it (and i think you guys did a very nice job) and the real world is top tube storage, that is, readily accessible storage for longer distance racing. unless people aren't going to eat, you have to stick your food somewhere.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
will Tom A. begin to reconsider disc brakes?

no. for tri bikes? no.

but that's why i love him so ;-)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for putting this together, it appears to be really well thought out and the write up is done well. Neither of these are easy tasks.

One question regarding the CdA #'s...are all bikes and bike/rider combo's assumed to have the same frontal area....or were actual frontal area measurements taken of the bikes and bike/rider combos?

One other curiosity....were the bikes weighed as tested? You mention the Andean was heavy....I have gotten the impression that the P5-X is pretty heavy, and the P5 isn't exactly light by road bike standards either.
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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First. A big "Thanks" to everyone that helped with this project!

What I find really interesting is how much, or little, progress has been made over the last 7-8 years. To put this in perspective I went back and looked at the old Slowtwich article on the P4. http://[[url]http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Cervelo_P4_in_the_Tunnel_1929.html/url]

Back in the day the P4, which is pretty close to the P5 at low yaw, was about 125-150 grams of drag lower than everything else. That's a pretty similar margin to what we see today.

So if you were pretty anal about setup (3T Ventus bar) and used a clean center-pull break (prior to TriRig) you might have seen no drag reduction since the P4 came out in 2009ish.
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
I was surprised when I read the report last night. I'll be honest, I didn't believe Cervelo's marketing on the P5x. I just wish they had been more forthcoming with information and data to back up their claims.... (at least to the consumers/public).

So now that this is out, will we ever see a detailed report (white paper) on the p5x from Cervelo?..... probably not. Cervelo should send some money to Kiley since he did their work for them.

I guess I don't understand why they were so guarded for a while about it. And still are. We haven't seen their comparative test results. Or at least I haven't, even though a lot of the industry people have apparently

I think it would be interesting to find out if Cervelo really thinks they didn't make any speed compromises with the disc brakes. That was the other point we were all making...it's like yeah maybe they are fast on this bike but are they conceding something to a rim-brake optimized product? Which is a hard thing to know because they seem to have decided on disc brakes as an input rather than an output. Which is what annoys those who don't feel they need or want disc brakes on a time trial bike.
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Sweeney] [ In reply to ]
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It was trashed more for looks than the lack of speed if I remember correctly since we didn't have any good data. Now we do. It still doesn't look better in person, but its good to know that at least its got a great personality.

2019 T-Rex Tri Series
Last edited by: mknight84: Jun 30, 17 8:23
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So my P5-3 is fastest. Already knew that. :P
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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My take away with all that work they got the picture or the caption wrong on page 4. I mean come on is this amateur hour here?
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman-

The link in Kiley's duplicate thread (that you locked) points to itself, rather than to this thread.
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This is great data comparing the superbikes! But for the more budget-conscious and less uber-performance minded of us, did you guys at the speed tunnel manage to throw in a "non-uber" triathlon bike for comparison? Like a Cervelo P2 or something around that range, which is considered fast enough for pros but maybe not the pinnacle of uberbike engineering?

Or better yet, toss in a cheap TT bike just to show how much (or little) better these uberbikes are compared to the cheap stuff. The differences between uberbikes can be seen as a lot more impressive if they're all seriously outclassing the cheaper bikes by big margins, or as a lot less if the margin between a $1400 TT bike and the top uberbike is <500g.
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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hence why i asked for pics at same angle yaw, as at first blush it appears there are subtle differences in reach, head position, hand position even on non-tactical bikes. if these pics represent what was done in testing they can account for more than the error bar, unfortunately. just being devil's advocate

also, would have preferred seeing a disk wheel in back vs open spokes, unless you are saying the cervelos designed with riders onboard were designed with non-disk wheels
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [mknight84] [ In reply to ]
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Firstly, great work guys, thanks.

I will never be in a position to buy a "super bike"... I'm too fat and slow and don't have the cash nor realistic desire to buy one. What I do love about this test is how well the Felt B Series did, why are we not talking about this? And as Kileyay stated... easy to travel with.

Thanks again
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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If you read the report you'll see that the baseline bike was a 2009 Felt B series bike. It wasn't stock, but realistically could be cobbled together pretty inexpensively. Theoretically the P2/P3 should be faster since Cervelo showed it was super close to the P5 in their own data when they released the P3. That being said, they are all super close.


lightheir wrote:
This is great data comparing the superbikes! But for the more budget-conscious and less uber-performance minded of us, did you guys at the speed tunnel manage to throw in a "non-uber" triathlon bike for comparison? Like a Cervelo P2 or something around that range, which is considered fast enough for pros but maybe not the pinnacle of uberbike engineering?

Or better yet, toss in a cheap TT bike just to show how much (or little) better these uberbikes are compared to the cheap stuff. The differences between uberbikes can be seen as a lot more impressive if they're all seriously outclassing the cheaper bikes by big margins, or as a lot less if the margin between a $1400 TT bike and the top uberbike is <500g.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, they used Kiley's old Felt.
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Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
also, it seems to me that the andean was tested without its top-tube storage. i have a problem with the andean's chosen aerobar, and i'm building up an andean now with a different bar that requires me to remove that storage. so i get that.

but i suspect that that top tube storage is quite aero, and maybe even more aero than having it removed. i think when you test a bike configured that way against the other bikes with some other sort of top tube storage put on there, the results might be different.

I think you're right. We talked to Kevin Quan about the most aero configuration for the storage and hydration, and they did say that long train of hydration and storage back to back like that is the fastest configuration on that bike. But that doesn't even come close to working for anyone who has narrower hand position. The train is just too long. And where you have your BTA has to be basically exactly right to run that bento thing nicely flush against the back of it, which it didn't. Basically the bike is a little misleading as to how much of that stuff will actually work for (I think) most people's configurations. Not that I care, because I'm racing for 2.5 hours -- I don't need a week's provisions.

I'm still kind of disappointed as I really thought it would be faster. Even in the bike only test, which is where that element was neutralized on all bikes, it doesn't just kill it. Which it seems like it should based on how narrow it is.

Slowman wrote:
to me, the biggest difference in set up between the test as you did it (and i think you guys did a very nice job) and the real world is top tube storage, that is, readily accessible storage for longer distance racing. unless people aren't going to eat, you have to stick your food somewhere.

It's a far point. I just don't understand how people can eat real food during a triathlon. Most people figure out how to get liquid calories. It's so much easier to get everything you need from a concentrated round bottle and not be fooling with wrappers and trash and shit like that while you're out there making watts trying to draft the moto.
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