I seem to remember a certain top pro tri star being banned from competing in France in the late 80's early 90's due to Nandrolone....

do any of the old timers remember this???

Lets leave it at that. No intention to offend. I love the sport but I view it for what it is in my opinion and don't want to make it to be more than that

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"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD

Team Aquaphor 06-08

why is it so hard for you to understand people who don't want the most notorious cheater of all time banned from races? people who make relatively tiny transgressions in the sport -- like bandit races, cut courses or swap numbers -- receive lifetime bans. it may come as news to you but there actually is a rule in the sport about keeping someone out who has been involved in a massive cheating ring and it's a lifetime ban. it really is shocking to me that people still are this clueless about the issues at hand here.

:-)

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29 years and counting

Are you saying that they are not?

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I think Lance has more affluence than you give him credit for. His $100 million in financial weath will produce $10 million in yearly income.

I think he wants to compete because when he does he feels important.

Thanks, in an effort to not be clueless - can you point out that cheating ring rule to me http://www.usatriathlon.org/...isport/rulebook.aspx
I think you may not have understood or bothered to fully read what I said. I'll reiterate - if he is banned by USADA/WADA - fine, don't let him race. I think that this falls within the USAT rules. However, if a ban is lifted by USADA/WADA - I'm not seeing any rule that prevents his racing - unless there is the doping ring rule that you refer to that I seem to be missing. My point is that I don't see a "scumbag/shitty human being" rule in the above link and I don't think that there should be. You may find Lance to be the most disgusting person ever...at the same time I may find the tax cheat dead beat dad that has had multiple DUIs a disgusting person, but I don't think there are people out there trying to prevent the tax cheat deadbeat from competing.

I'm saying to prove it to me that every pro triathlete isn't dirty?

It really pains me to say that....seriously it does....

Those that are caught have generally been very good at convincing the rest of us they are clean. So when the "others" say the same why should we believe them?

Again just looking at it from the other side....I really want to believe there are clean athletes out there.

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Thank you.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

What part of the highlighted text don't you understand?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

in follow up about the triathletes of the 80's/90's....Scott Molina was one of the big four and was banned from the Nice Triathlon in France due to a failed test....Nandralone if memory serves......

very few seem to ever remember this or talk about it....only seems fair to list this when talking about the history of drug use in Triathlon....

from David Evans blog:

http://roadbacktokona.blogspot.com/

talking about Lance.....

" If so, he would not have been the first triathlete to dope. Scott Molina failed a post-race drug test in Nice, France, in the mid-80s and then was banned for life from the Nice race, at the time, along with Kona, one of only two standout races in the young sport. We know that Lance had access to this coterie of triathletes of which Molina was a leader and growing legend. Was Molina part of a larger performance-enhancing drug culture in triathlon? No matter, was Molina an early and poor influence on Lance? We may never know."

i don't understand the "if they want" part. there is no "wanting" because USADA and WADA control and it is completely irrelevant what USAT "wants" when he is banned by USADA and WADA. now if lance decides to squeal on the UCI and Nike and USADA/WADA decide to shorten his ban, then USAT still can ban him under this USAT rule:

3.6 Penalties and Prohibited Conduct. Penalties, including disqualification and suspension, may be imposed upon race participants and/or members of USA Triathlon who violate any of these Competitive Rules or who solicit, encourage, or assist a violation of these Rules. Except as otherwise provided in these Rules, the specific penalty to be imposed in any given case shall depend on the nature and severity of the violation as determined by the Head Referee or USA Triathlon. The following penalties may be imposed for a violation of these Rules:
a. Assessment of a time penalty
b. Disqualification
c. Written reprimand or censure
d. Monetary fines
e. Suspension from membership in USA Triathlon (including retroactive suspension), and
f. Permanent expulsion from USA Triathlon

you might not like it (and the same goes for the other poster) but it is entirely in USAT's power and rules to ban lance for life because they think he is a [fill in the blank with a derogatory word].

That that could keep him from racing pro how? Knowing Lance he would probably simply find a way to get his pro card from another country. USAT is not the only body that licenses professionals.

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i was just responding to the clueless guy who gave me a link to USAT's rules and asked me to point him to the rule that would empower USAT to ban lance for being a dick if USADA/WADA no longer have him suspended. you do bring up an interesting idea though and i don't know what the answer is if lance were to go to, say, qatar, to get a pro card and then tried to race 70.3 and ironman races.

mag900 wrote:

i was just responding to the clueless guy who gave me a link to USAT's rules and asked me to point him to the rule that would empower USAT to ban lance for being a dick if USADA/WADA no longer have him suspended. you do bring up an interesting idea though and i don't know what the answer is if lance were to go to, say, qatar, to get a pro card and then tried to race 70.3 and ironman races.

I'm sorry...but I think you are mistaken about who is clueless. The section you reference - 3.6, applies to the rules laid out in section 3 - Competitive rules. More specifically, section 3.4. Doping is covered in sec 8. There is no mention in section 3 on being a scumbag in everyday life.


Further, you state above that there is a rule that covers cheating rings...and that the penalty is a lifetime ban. First off, I've yet to find this rule...and so far, you haven't been able to supply it either. Second, assuming sec 3.6 were to apply (a massive stretch), the phrase saying "The following penalties may be imposed for a violation of these rules:" does not automatically warrant that a lifetime ban is the penalty. Again, it is plainly clear here that your personal feelings about Lance are what is driving your desire to thwart the rules that have been laid out.

Qatar is a WADA signatory. If he were to go that route, he would have to find a country that is not a WADA signatory, and then I don't know if the license would be recognized anyway.

http://www.wada-ama.org/...List-of-signatories/

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

no, i believe that you also fall into the clueless category. the section i cited above, Section 3.6, covers Competitive Rules, which contains the following provision:

3.3 General Conduct. At or during an event, or while at the event site, all participants must:
a. Act in compliance with these Competitive Rules;
b. Conduct themselves in a manner that is not offensive in any way to fellow participants, spectators, officials or volunteers and is considered reasonable and acceptable in the community;
c. Treat all participants, officials, volunteers and spectators with fairness, respect and courtesy;

i think it's fair to say that showing up to races last year doped was both offensive and not acceptable in the community.

there isn't a specific rule that says "if you are a member of a drug ring, you will be banned for life" as USAT mostly punts to USADA/WADA for PED punishment. however, it's not that much of a stretch to use 3.3(b) again as justification to keep him out. you are correct in pointing out that all of this is discretionary but so is nearly everything so i don't know what your point is ("the specific penalty to be imposed in any given case shall depend on the nature and severity of the violation as determined by the Head Referee or USA Triathlon").

all of this is moot because WTC is salivating to get lance back so it can fully maximize making money off him. if USADA/WTC lift his ban, he's going to be back.

Section 1:

Section 8:

So, the first section states anybody toeing the line is subject to the rules, and 8.3 states that they adhere to USADA sanctions, and in the case of conflict, the USAT rules are superseded by the USADA rules. (Huh. Just noticed USAT misspelled superseded.)

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

No , I don't think so. That seems a pretty broad interpretation to me. This seems almost like a code of conduct clause and the doping would fall into its own separate category

I really think that is about the most absurd way to approach that rule. First, I'm very curious as to how you know he was doped for those races. Don't give me..."well, once a cheater, always a cheater"...I'm talking actual proof. Give me one positive test {sic}, one witness, anything from anyone that isn't just pure speculation. You can assume all you want...as you clearly have, but until you can provide anything...even the tiniest shred of proof...I don't see how that you could even loosely apply that rule. Even then...it is more than a stretch.

My whole point on all of this doesn't necessarily even have to do with Lance. I don't want to see people being excluded or banned b/c someone decides to make up rules based on their personal morals and what they personally find as disgusting or not. When you do that, you go down a road that invites abuse. Who is in charge or making a morality call? What say you if that person thinks that anyone who has had an abortion, for example, as a disgusting person and doesn't want anyone who has had one racing or in the sport...boom lifetime ban. Are we going to start having character screenings as part of the registration process?

I get it that you don't want him racing b/c you think he's a terrible person and that you think it would give a black eye to the sport. Fine, you are welcome to your opinion. But trying to exclude someone based on speculation and a dislike of their character is not something that should be part of the rules.

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If the ban is kept up, will he get so desperate that he pulls a Ricco?

... "I don’t think it's worth talking about. Ciao.”

Maybe Ricco should have been Lance's adviser.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

well congratulations on proclaiming that as the most absurd way to approach the rule. well i think that your response is absurd. i didn't write the rules but they pretty clearly give the USAT broad discretion to ban people it wants to ban. is that a shock to you?

why are you asking me to "prove" to you that he was doping last year when you know that neither i nor anyone else can (yet)? however, we do know that he was doping until 2005 (even lance admits that) and that there is a mountain of evidence that he was doping through 2010 (that biological passport is a pisser). it's not that much of a stretch to conclude that, at the very least, he had residual benefits from his 2010 doping in 2012 (and that's assuming that he actually did stop, which i highly doubt).

i absolutely want people banned for life who blatantly cheat for years. this has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with the rules and attempting to clean up sports once and for all. what also is absurd is that you are trying to spin this into a morality call when morality has nothing to do with it. comparing a lifetime ban of the biggest drug cheat of all time to the banning of someone who had an abortion is beyond absurd. all cheating is immoral so i don't understand why you are even bringing this up. you also are wrong thinking that i want him banned for life because he is a bad guy (even though i do think he is a bad guy). he could be a saint but someone who so wantonly breaks the rules for so long and who has had such an unfair advantage for so long should be banned for life in all WADA sports regardless of how good or bad the person is.

the reason why any of this is an issue is that it's quite clear that lance is going to do everything he possibly can (ie, buy people off) to try and get the USADA/WADA ban reduced to 8 years so he can race again. USADA has banned him for life because it deemed his prior acts so bad that that was the just punishment (and note that he refused to defend himself). how is it possibly a good thing if he then can go ahead and buy people off to get his ban reduced to 8 years? it's not.

I get a kick out of comments like this from the article:

"Armstrong has won two 70.3 (half ironman distance) triathlons and it is understood he sees the sport as the best way to make money given his sponsors have deserted him. "

Lance's motivations are hard to discern, but I highly doubt that he believes the piddly sponsorship money associated with being a pro triathlete is going to provide him long-term meaningful income.

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Gary Clendenin (aka, "The Kid" or "G-man")

It isn't. The rules that you two keep quoting over and over to each other cover IN RACE conduct. So your abortion example is patently stupid, unless someone is performing one in the middle of the race, in which case, yeah, I'd call that offensive. The statement is designed so that if you moon the officials in the race or do something equally stupid, they can ding you for it.

As far as mag900 writing about "Mostly punting to USADA", there is no mostly about it. USADA administers the testing protocols for USAT, and they (USADA) determine and administer penalties. If you get pulled aside after a race for testing (And yes, as a random AG athlete that is possible), it's USADA that is doing it, not USAT.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |