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Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question
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All,

Sorry if this was previously covered. I ran several searches and I couldn't seem to find a similar thread. I was wondering if anyone else on a Speed Concept has experienced the bearings wearing away the carbon in the BB90 shell and what Trek has done to remedy the situation.

Here is a quick summary of the issue. The bike is approximately 9 months old:

- Trek 9 Series P1 Speed Concept delivered in May 2015
- Raced 1 HIM, 1st IM, training camp, 2nd IM
- Most weekly riding was done indoors on a second bike. Training from October 15 - January 16 was predominately indoors on a second bike.
- Last week half way through a longer ride the crank sounded a little funny. When I finished the ride there was lateral play in the crank.
- I figured the BB was shot, so I ordered a set of new BB90 bearings.
- The mechanic removed the non drive side bearing, which was filthy.
- The new bearing loosely slid into the frame and there was still lateral play in the cranks.
- The mechanic had seen this before and assumed the BB shell was no longer symmetrical.
- He performed micrometer checks on the shell and the non drive side had become elongated.

I contacted the LBS who has always been great and very helpful. They said they have seen this many times on Madones and Speed Concepts because the bearings are pressed directly into the carbon frame. They informed me that Trek's solution was to produce a BB90 Version 2 (oversized) bearing to compensate for the worn away carbon. I posed the question of "On your high end super bikes, you are forcing riders to ride an $8 bearing because of a defective frame?"

After a couple of quick google searches ("Trek oversized bearing" "BB90 V2" "BB90 worn away"), I found plenty of people having the same issue.

http://www.johnstonefitness.com/...bottom-bracket-saga/
http://www.braveheartfund.co.uk/...c.asp?TOPIC_ID=12204
http://ballbearingadventures.kogel.cc/...et-standards-part-2/

Trek's solution is to lay more carbon into the shell instead of replacing the frame. I was wondering if anyone has had this done, or if anyone has had the frame replaced for this issue?

I tried to have trek replace the frame, but was given the following response:

"They cannot build a brand new P1 an replace it outright, it just isn't within their capacity." Their "capacity" machine must only run on non-company dollars.
"This is not just a Trek problem but any frame with a direct fit bearing into carbon can be affected during oversize/undersize during the curing process."

Trek was right when the said "The fastest bike just got faster." This bike in particular now travels at about 600mph back to Wisconsin to fix engineering flaws. Unfortunately, the rider slows down when his rack in T2 is empty.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [adc13] [ In reply to ]
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So an oversized BB90 bearing would not fix your problem? Or it's not an acceptable solution for you?
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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nickwhite wrote:
So an oversized BB90 bearing would not fix your problem? Or it's not an acceptable solution for you?

The way I read it is that trek is saying that the original BB wears the carbon down, so what about when the oversized bearing wears away even more carbon?
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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On a $12k bike, running an $8 bearing is not an acceptable solution.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [adc13] [ In reply to ]
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What about the ceramic speed bearings? Are they the standard size or V2 size?

I only ask as I have an SC and have some CS bearings still sitting in their package waiting to be installed.

blog
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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When the v2 bearing eats the shell, trek adds carbon to the shell so that it is back to normal bb90 size.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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CS are not oversized and they do not make oversized BB90 bearings. I had a pair on order and cancelled them.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [adc13] [ In reply to ]
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I noticed this on a Madone I had, after a few BB changes it got to the point that I could just install them by hand. It never got to the point though that it caused movement in my crank and I since sold the bike. I have a Speed Concept now as well with a carbon BB shell and was wondering if over time this would happen again.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [ironmanjp] [ In reply to ]
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I was told the best thing to do is remove the bearings and clean every 6months.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [ironmanjp] [ In reply to ]
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it was an issue on my domane as well and they sent my lbs oversized ones... I had to pay for the labor tho!

I will never buy another bike with BB90, it is such a hassle (specially when moving my power meter crank from bike to bike).

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [adc13] [ In reply to ]
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adc13 wrote:
All,

Sorry if this was previously covered. I ran several searches and I couldn't seem to find a similar thread. I was wondering if anyone else on a Speed Concept has experienced the bearings wearing away the carbon in the BB90 shell and what Trek has done to remedy the situation.

Here is a quick summary of the issue. The bike is approximately 9 months old:

- Trek 9 Series P1 Speed Concept delivered in May 2015
- Raced 1 HIM, 1st IM, training camp, 2nd IM
- Most weekly riding was done indoors on a second bike. Training from October 15 - January 16 was predominately indoors on a second bike.
- Last week half way through a longer ride the crank sounded a little funny. When I finished the ride there was lateral play in the crank.
- I figured the BB was shot, so I ordered a set of new BB90 bearings.
- The mechanic removed the non drive side bearing, which was filthy.
- The new bearing loosely slid into the frame and there was still lateral play in the cranks.
- The mechanic had seen this before and assumed the BB shell was no longer symmetrical.
- He performed micrometer checks on the shell and the non drive side had become elongated.

I contacted the LBS who has always been great and very helpful. They said they have seen this many times on Madones and Speed Concepts because the bearings are pressed directly into the carbon frame. They informed me that Trek's solution was to produce a BB90 Version 2 (oversized) bearing to compensate for the worn away carbon. I posed the question of "On your high end super bikes, you are forcing riders to ride an $8 bearing because of a defective frame?"

After a couple of quick google searches ("Trek oversized bearing" "BB90 V2" "BB90 worn away"), I found plenty of people having the same issue.

http://www.johnstonefitness.com/...bottom-bracket-saga/
http://www.braveheartfund.co.uk/...c.asp?TOPIC_ID=12204
http://ballbearingadventures.kogel.cc/...et-standards-part-2/

Trek's solution is to lay more carbon into the shell instead of replacing the frame. I was wondering if anyone has had this done, or if anyone has had the frame replaced for this issue?

I tried to have trek replace the frame, but was given the following response:

"They cannot build a brand new P1 an replace it outright, it just isn't within their capacity." Their "capacity" machine must only run on non-company dollars.
"This is not just a Trek problem but any frame with a direct fit bearing into carbon can be affected during oversize/undersize during the curing process."

Trek was right when the said "The fastest bike just got faster." This bike in particular now travels at about 600mph back to Wisconsin to fix engineering flaws. Unfortunately, the rider slows down when his rack in T2 is empty.


I own 2 years old Domane 6, one year old Madone 7, and just recently purchased SC9 (2 months old) 50 hours on the trainer.

Domane and Madone are perfect, but I noticed SC9 front chain ring has “wobble” left to right. Especially when I apply some more power. When I do my 500W-550W 20s intervals I can make chain rub despite the fact it is di2. When I go 300W I can still see the wobble but chain is not rubbing against FD. Can this be issue with bad installed bearings? Maybe trek didn’t use enough Loctite?
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [LuisDF] [ In reply to ]
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Has anyone approached Carl in the official SC owners thread on here. He is usually pretty spot on with his responses.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [adc13] [ In reply to ]
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adc13 wrote:
I was told the best thing to do is remove the bearings and clean every 6months.


This is the best thing to do for ANY bearing.

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On a $12k bike, running an $8 bearing is not an acceptable solution.


That seems like an odd ultimatum. At what cutoff is an "$8 bearing" acceptable?? A $5000 bike? A $7500 bike?

Accelerate3 Coaching https://accelerate3.com/
Moxie Multisport https://www.themoxiemultisport.com/
Last edited by: James Haycraft: Mar 3, 16 13:47
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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I was thinking the same thing...so would it be an acceptable fix if they charged you more than $8 for it? This is such a Slowtwitch microcosm of the #firstworldproblems hashtag.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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one might assume that if one paid 12k for a bike they would want top of like BB bearings in it. what that means is up to the end user I suppose, but if the only bearing they can get is a special one form trek due to a strange size now, and that was not the case when purchased, the item sold is no longer functioning as it was advertised. resale will be less, assuming the seller disclosed the bearing/bb info. etc. maybe the owner wants that last 0.1w out of the bb bearings. maybe the trek supplied ones give it, maybe not. from what I read, or misread, no one besides trek knows what they are getting.

the poster with the domane getting charged for this fix seems out of line as well.

I fully admit I may have scanned this one way too fast, cuz, well, it was about a trek product ;) I have bad bias
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Well, most people view things in the other direction. An $8 fix is a good thing. Easy, fast, cheap; how is that not a good solution?

I'm guessing that because of slight mold differences most bikes get the standard bearing, and then some end up needing the V2; I'd bet the lifespan at that point is much improved, but that's a guess because he V1 may not be a great fit in some bikes to begin with.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [msrixon] [ In reply to ]
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Not seeing much I can add...other than to clarify a couple details:

-adding carbon to a damaged or otherwise oversize molded BB cup is not a BB90 repair procedure.

-the V2 bearing itself isn't oversize...it's a regular spec bearing with a shim to take up the extra space. it was developed as a remedy for oversized BB cups in an early batch of 2010-era Madones. molding specs were changed after an internal investigation, greatly reducing the rate of occurrence, but the V2 bearing has stayed in the warranty department's toolbox as one of those just-in-case things.

Carl Matson
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [adc13] [ In reply to ]
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This is exhibit A for why press-fit bottom bracket bearings are an incredibly dumb idea. What exactly was wrong with the threaded outboard-bearing systems that prompted this design change? Easy to install and replace, reliable, did not require a perfectly molded BB shell or risk damage to the frame - yeah let's just do away with all that. So irritating.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [Carl] [ In reply to ]
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Carl,

What is the repair procedure then? The shell is being "repaired" so that a V1 bearing fits in. Other than adding more carbon to fill the elongated part, I don't see what else they could do.

Thanks.

Andy
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [adc13] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if there is or will be a repair where your frame is concerned...every case is different. I was only trying to say that adding carbon to an existing frame as a repair method would be news to me.

I've heard of using loctite as a gap filler for loose bearings, but I don't know that it ever became a standard option.

Carl Matson
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [Carl] [ In reply to ]
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Using loctite to fill missing carbon certainly seems like a viable solution. Not sure why I have to mail it to Wisconsin for that to happen. It seems like pep boys could handle that. Maybe I could just use rubber cement or super glue.

I know I was specifically told that Trek doesn't have the capacity to build a new P1 frame.

Rule no. 1 don't buy another P1. Rule no 2. Don't buy a trek.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [adc13] [ In reply to ]
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Out of curiosity, what crank are you using?
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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Shimano Durace w/SRM.
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [THesel] [ In reply to ]
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THesel wrote:
This is exhibit A for why press-fit bottom bracket bearings are an incredibly dumb idea. What exactly was wrong with the threaded outboard-bearing systems that prompted this design change? Easy to install and replace, reliable, did not require a perfectly molded BB shell or risk damage to the frame - yeah let's just do away with all that. So irritating.

This
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Re: Trek BB90 Carbon Wearing Away - Warranty Question [adc13] [ In reply to ]
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adc13 wrote:
All,

Sorry if this was previously covered. I ran several searches and I couldn't seem to find a similar thread. I was wondering if anyone else on a Speed Concept has experienced the bearings wearing away the carbon in the BB90 shell and what Trek has done to remedy the situation.

Here is a quick summary of the issue. The bike is approximately 9 months old:

- Trek 9 Series P1 Speed Concept delivered in May 2015
- Raced 1 HIM, 1st IM, training camp, 2nd IM
- Most weekly riding was done indoors on a second bike. Training from October 15 - January 16 was predominately indoors on a second bike.
- Last week half way through a longer ride the crank sounded a little funny. When I finished the ride there was lateral play in the crank.
- I figured the BB was shot, so I ordered a set of new BB90 bearings.
- The mechanic removed the non drive side bearing, which was filthy.
- The new bearing loosely slid into the frame and there was still lateral play in the cranks.
- The mechanic had seen this before and assumed the BB shell was no longer symmetrical.
- He performed micrometer checks on the shell and the non drive side had become elongated.

I contacted the LBS who has always been great and very helpful. They said they have seen this many times on Madones and Speed Concepts because the bearings are pressed directly into the carbon frame. They informed me that Trek's solution was to produce a BB90 Version 2 (oversized) bearing to compensate for the worn away carbon. I posed the question of "On your high end super bikes, you are forcing riders to ride an $8 bearing because of a defective frame?"

After a couple of quick google searches ("Trek oversized bearing" "BB90 V2" "BB90 worn away"), I found plenty of people having the same issue.

http://www.johnstonefitness.com/...bottom-bracket-saga/
http://www.braveheartfund.co.uk/...c.asp?TOPIC_ID=12204
http://ballbearingadventures.kogel.cc/...et-standards-part-2/

Trek's solution is to lay more carbon into the shell instead of replacing the frame. I was wondering if anyone has had this done, or if anyone has had the frame replaced for this issue?

I tried to have trek replace the frame, but was given the following response:

"They cannot build a brand new P1 an replace it outright, it just isn't within their capacity." Their "capacity" machine must only run on non-company dollars.
"This is not just a Trek problem but any frame with a direct fit bearing into carbon can be affected during oversize/undersize during the curing process."

Trek was right when the said "The fastest bike just got faster." This bike in particular now travels at about 600mph back to Wisconsin to fix engineering flaws. Unfortunately, the rider slows down when his rack in T2 is empty.

I would say my only expectation is for a replacement frame for free. A company needs to stand behind their product.
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