Transitioning from HIM to IM training

Jun 15, 20 11:07

Post #1 of 43 (4197 views)

Good afternoon all,
My HIM peak was just last weekend, I continued to train as usual during quarantine prepping for a cancelled Eagleman so I can see how my training plan would have gone if the event had happened.
Transition week now and currently sitting 13 weeks out from Ironman Maryland and wanted to get some insight/ feedback of my macro plan. (if the damn race happens!)
~~I'll be doing my first full distance Ironman and expect to go sub 9~~
edit: so maybe not doable

I swim with tower26 so swim planning is taken care of, and my pool is now open.

For the bike I am thinking 4 weeks vO2 progression starting at 1min repeats and ending at 3-4min. Lower volume than usual so I can get my swim back and build run mileage
4 weeks focusing on TTE @ ftp which is currently sitting at 332w 4.8w/kg
4 weeks muscular endurance. Long intervals at SS 80-90%
Volume already is not an issue as i ride 90-110 miles each weekend and plan to continue doing so as long as I feel it's manageable.
French Alps training camp mid August(if we are allowed to enter the country)

For the run. I would say this is my weak point (excluding loss of fitness from simply not swimming for 3months).
I was prepping for an early April Marathon but that got cancelled so I have not yet done the full distance. Back then I was projecting and working towards 6:40/mile marathon. So I expect the IM run to be in the realm of 7-7:10? The last run race I completed was back in March for a 37:17 10k, and feel I could run sub 37 today. Struggling with motivation to run another on my own.
I am thinking of building E mileage for 3-4 weeks as I currently run 30-40mpw then progress there. I am just coming off a fresh threshold progression. 1 'workout'/week with 4-6 E miles warmup then a T interval block that progressed to 6mi total. Need some help with the later 8 weeks of planning here. Where in time should I peak mileage, and where should I focus marathon pace workouts.

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Last edited by: Ryanppax: Jun 16, 20 9:01

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 0:13

Post #2 of 43 (4009 views)

Ryanppax wrote:

I'll be doing my first full distance Ironman and expect to go sub 9

How can you expect to go sub 9 on a first IM.
Give us some times of other triathlons and marathons you did.

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 0:26

Post #3 of 43 (3996 views)

longtrousers wrote:

Ryanppax wrote:

I'll be doing my first full distance Ironman and expect to go sub 9

How can you expect to go sub 9 on a first IM.
Give us some times of other triathlons and marathons you did.

As above. Please give us times. Don't expect others to do the maths:

"Back then I was projecting and working towards 6:40/mile marathon. So I expect the IM run to be in the realm of 7-7:10?"

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [satanellus] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 0:47

Post #4 of 43 (3972 views)

I'm feeling generous.

You're in 37 minute 10 km form. You haven't run a marathon, but were hoping for 2:55. You concede that running is your weakness and you want to convert that to a 3:03 to 3:10 marathon in your first IM.

On the little info you've given us, that sounds very ambitious.

What are you run times in 70.3? And swim and bike? How many have you done? How many seasons have you raced?

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [satanellus] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 1:03

Post #5 of 43 (3955 views)

satanellus wrote:

You're in 37 minute 10 km form. You haven't run a marathon, but were hoping for 2:55. You concede that running is your weakness and you want to convert that to a 3:03 to 3:10 marathon in your first IM.

I did not want to mention it, but as you brought it into focus I'll do it anyway: "Mature" long distance triathletes will do a marathon in a long distance triathlon 20 minutes slower than their solo marathon pb. On a perfect day. Only 10 minutes slower as the Threadowner expects feels very strange to me, almost like a guess of someone who is not familiar with the matter.

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 7:16

Post #6 of 43 (3792 views)

longtrousers wrote:

satanellus wrote:

You're in 37 minute 10 km form. You haven't run a marathon, but were hoping for 2:55. You concede that running is your weakness and you want to convert that to a 3:03 to 3:10 marathon in your first IM.

I did not want to mention it, but as you brought it into focus I'll do it anyway: "Mature" long distance triathletes will do a marathon in a long distance triathlon 20 minutes slower than their solo marathon pb. On a perfect day. Only 10 minutes slower as the Threadowner expects feels very strange to me, almost like a guess of someone who is not familiar with the matter.

Bang on the money for me... Solo Marathon 3h7m IM Marathon 3h22m ... 15 mins slower. IM Marathon was just about perfect, Solo marathon was pacing for sub 3hr and got it all wrong

My FTP is around 350 @ 5w/kg. on a good day on a fast course, like Roth, I would love to do a sub 9:30 IM, so the OP's target of sub 9 hours is optimistic, even if he swims like a fish (which I don't). I would say Sub 10 would be a good target, and if really well executed he should be delighted with 9:15

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 7:33

Post #7 of 43 (3767 views)

I guess I have been wildly misinformed on the run speed.

Times wise, I had a great day at Eagleman last year 3:48 running 6:31s. An ok day at Waterman's half at 4:16 running 7s I had come off an injury

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Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 7:41

Post #8 of 43 (3752 views)

Fun to talk about something training related on this board again...

Looks like FTP is very good; engine is clearly very good; but i'd still be very surprised if you get it right the first time and break 3:30 on the run. The 37:17' 10k is mediocre (given your goals) and it under-performs vs. what your bike FTP seems to suggest you are capable of.

I'd think you'd want to be hitting ~60 miles a week at your peak to have any shot of running 3:0x. Probably would need to live in the upper 40s low 50s for the rest of your block with a peak run volume ~3/4 weeks out.

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 7:44

Post #9 of 43 (3748 views)

Ryanppax wrote:

I guess I have been wildly misinformed on the run speed.

Times wise, I had a great day at Eagleman last year 3:48 running 6:31s. An ok day at Waterman's half at 4:16 running 7s I had come off an injury

I think placing those in your initial post may have provided some better context for your question. Without tangible results to point to, your post with the expectation of sub 9, which puts you in the very elite of very elite amateurs, was hard to get behind as realistic.

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 7:48

Post #10 of 43 (3736 views)

Looking at your past race times I don't believe sub-9 is feasible unless they cancel the swim (or another leg). To go sub-9 you need to be a good runner in the first place and have a very solid running base.
Last year you ran 1h32 at Eagleman 70.3 with no swim. I hope you improved a lot in the meantime.
Sub-9 performances are build over years with dedicated continuous training. Good luck!
To put some things in perspective: running 35'xx"/10k is (relatively) easy for me. I can do it any time but I never say that I expect to do a sub-9 IM...
Sam

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 7:53

Post #11 of 43 (3725 views)

Ryanppax wrote:

I guess I have been wildly misinformed on the run speed.

Times wise, I had a great day at Eagleman last year 3:48 running 6:31s. An ok day at Waterman's half at 4:16 running 7s I had come off an injury

Seems you won Waterman's half but not in 4:16 but in 4:21?

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 7:54

Post #12 of 43 (3722 views)

The hard part of this is the bike. NOT overbiking but at the same time not giving too much up. Compound this with the nutrition that MUST be executed correctly on the bike, and you have found the major difference between a half and full ironman. This can be replicated in training but how well you execute and how patient you are will determine your day more than your fitness.

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 8:31

Post #13 of 43 (3676 views)

longtrousers wrote:

Ryanppax wrote:

I guess I have been wildly misinformed on the run speed.

Times wise, I had a great day at Eagleman last year 3:48 running 6:31s. An ok day at Waterman's half at 4:16 running 7s I had come off an injury

Seems you won Waterman's half but not in 4:16 but in 4:21?

Yeah you're right, just looked it up in TP. Wonder where I got 4:16 from. Maybe that was my goal and mixed the 2 up in my head

Thanks for bring me back down to earth. I have some re-evaluating to do.

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Last edited by: Ryanppax: Jun 16, 20 8:39

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 10:14

Post #14 of 43 (3599 views)

I agree with everything everyone else has said. I would just add that Ironman exposes any weaknesses you have; athletic ability, mental strength, training, and especially nutrition. You can get away with things in a 70.3 that will get exposed and be your downfall in a 140.6. Two things that no one has mentioned is the swim and nutrition. While you don't have to be the fastest swimmer, you do need to be able to handle the distance without getting fatigued. Too often the swim training is overlooked, and triathletes are already too gassed when they get on the bike and they can't bike or run to their true ability. Then the other part is nutrition. Start working on your nutrition plan now and practice it in training every single day. You can be in the best shape possible come race day, but it will all fall apart if you don't have a full proof nutrition plan that you have practiced in training.

Last edited by: stevej: Jun 16, 20 10:16

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 10:21

Post #15 of 43 (3583 views)

stevej wrote:

I agree with everything everyone else has said. I would just add that Ironman exposes any weaknesses you have; athletic ability, mental strength, training, and especially nutrition. You can get away with things in a 70.3 that will get exposed and be your downfall in a 140.6. Two things that no one has mentioned is the swim and nutrition. While you don't have to be the fastest swimmer, you do need to be able to handle the distance without getting fatigued. Too often the swim training is overlooked, and triathletes are already too gassed when they get on the bike and they can't bike or run to their true ability. Then the other part is nutrition. Start working on your nutrition plan now and practice it in training every single day. You can be in the best shape possible come race day, but it will all fall apart if you don't have a full proof nutrition plan that you have practiced in training.

He's a good swimmer, look at his Waterman's half result. That is not a limiter.
Nutrition is going to be the decider probably. Most people need some IM experience to get that right: it is different for every individual. What are you going to eat and when and where you get it from: from your bike or from aid stations. How you are going to transport it on the bike and on the run.

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 10:26

Post #16 of 43 (3574 views)

I agree with this...nutrition and liquids are the main difference. Without even thinking triathlon - would you do a Marathon without some source of energy or water? - probably not. Could/would you do a half Marathon without - easily, depending on environment, maybe not the fastest time, but close.

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 10:31

Post #17 of 43 (3568 views)

longtrousers wrote:

stevej wrote:

I agree with everything everyone else has said. I would just add that Ironman exposes any weaknesses you have; athletic ability, mental strength, training, and especially nutrition. You can get away with things in a 70.3 that will get exposed and be your downfall in a 140.6. Two things that no one has mentioned is the swim and nutrition. While you don't have to be the fastest swimmer, you do need to be able to handle the distance without getting fatigued. Too often the swim training is overlooked, and triathletes are already too gassed when they get on the bike and they can't bike or run to their true ability. Then the other part is nutrition. Start working on your nutrition plan now and practice it in training every single day. You can be in the best shape possible come race day, but it will all fall apart if you don't have a full proof nutrition plan that you have practiced in training.

He's a good swimmer, look at his Waterman's half result. That is not a limiter.
Nutrition is going to be the decider probably. Most people need some IM experience to get that right: it is different for every individual. What are you going to eat and when and where you get it from: from your bike or from aid stations. How you are going to transport it on the bike and on the run.

We have different definitions of what a good swimmer is.

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [MadTownTRI] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 10:46

Post #18 of 43 (3546 views)

MadTownTRI wrote:

Fun to talk about something training related on this board again...

Yes this is classic ST - I love it!

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 12:07

Post #19 of 43 (3490 views)

stevej wrote:

longtrousers wrote:

stevej wrote:

I agree with everything everyone else has said. I would just add that Ironman exposes any weaknesses you have; athletic ability, mental strength, training, and especially nutrition. You can get away with things in a 70.3 that will get exposed and be your downfall in a 140.6. Two things that no one has mentioned is the swim and nutrition. While you don't have to be the fastest swimmer, you do need to be able to handle the distance without getting fatigued. Too often the swim training is overlooked, and triathletes are already too gassed when they get on the bike and they can't bike or run to their true ability. Then the other part is nutrition. Start working on your nutrition plan now and practice it in training every single day. You can be in the best shape possible come race day, but it will all fall apart if you don't have a full proof nutrition plan that you have practiced in training.

He's a good swimmer, look at his Waterman's half result. That is not a limiter.
Nutrition is going to be the decider probably. Most people need some IM experience to get that right: it is different for every individual. What are you going to eat and when and where you get it from: from your bike or from aid stations. How you are going to transport it on the bike and on the run.

We have different definitions of what a good swimmer is.

Wouldn't say a GREAT swimmer but I would think its less limiting than the run, as I can be top 10 out of the water but lose time in the run.

Nov.17 I swam a 22:26 1650yd scy and Jan 26 swam a 13:20 1000yd scy

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 12:27

Post #20 of 43 (3458 views)

Ryanppax wrote:

stevej wrote:

longtrousers wrote:

stevej wrote:

I agree with everything everyone else has said. I would just add that Ironman exposes any weaknesses you have; athletic ability, mental strength, training, and especially nutrition. You can get away with things in a 70.3 that will get exposed and be your downfall in a 140.6. Two things that no one has mentioned is the swim and nutrition. While you don't have to be the fastest swimmer, you do need to be able to handle the distance without getting fatigued. Too often the swim training is overlooked, and triathletes are already too gassed when they get on the bike and they can't bike or run to their true ability. Then the other part is nutrition. Start working on your nutrition plan now and practice it in training every single day. You can be in the best shape possible come race day, but it will all fall apart if you don't have a full proof nutrition plan that you have practiced in training.

He's a good swimmer, look at his Waterman's half result. That is not a limiter.
Nutrition is going to be the decider probably. Most people need some IM experience to get that right: it is different for every individual. What are you going to eat and when and where you get it from: from your bike or from aid stations. How you are going to transport it on the bike and on the run.

We have different definitions of what a good swimmer is.

Wouldn't say a GREAT swimmer but I would think its less limiting than the run, as I can be top 10 out of the water but lose time in the run.

Nov.17 I swam a 22:26 1650yd scy and Jan 26 swam a 13:20 1000yd scy

My original reply was not to imply that you are bad swimmer (I didn't even look up your results until longtrousers replied). My intent was to show that the swim can't be forgotten about especially since you are trying to "race" an Ironman, not just complete one (there is a huge difference). You originally mentioned breaking 9 hours which means you are contending for the AG win. With that in mind, all the boxes need to be checked and nothing left to chance. Just because you can swim a 30-33 min 70.3, doesn't necessarily mean you can swim 2.4 miles at race pace and be ready to bike/run 138.2 miles at the same effort/pace had you not done 2.4 miles of swimming right before it. 2.4 miles of open water swimming takes more of out you than most think. You need to be starting the bike with the gas tank still full without losing the race in the swim.

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 12:37

Post #21 of 43 (3445 views)

Hey man I'm not taking it personal.
Race day is just 1 case of the shits away from going wrong.

Happened at Eagleman last year. Feeling phenominal running 6:30s, passed a buddy and gave him a high five. Then mile 7 came....

IG - @ryanppax
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Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 14:02

Post #22 of 43 (3370 views)

Nah man screw it. I'll be the one to say it's doable. Or at least that you should be able to have the fitness for it. Execution and experience go a long looooong way in an Ironman. Do think you need to run more though. IM run is a survival game and if you haven't done it before it'll be tough to get right. As another point of reference I ran something like 3:13 there a couple years back not long after a 22:10ish 4 miler.

But that bike is so fast. If you swim + transition under 70 (realistic I think based on other comments?) and bike under 4:40 that'll give you like 3:15 to do it. And yeah that's probably a stretch for your first Ironman but it's not impossible. Can't imagine you'll be in worse than 9-9:10 shape (different than actually executing a 9:0X of course) though so again, screw it. Aiming sub nine is better than this sub ten nonsense in here at the very least

EDIT: upon further inspection id like to largely recant. I took your comment about 631s at EMan to mean an 85 minute half. Not 92. What is it you were taking about? Now everything I said applies more to sub 915-920 than sub 9

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Last edited by: Birdmantris: Jun 16, 20 14:09

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Birdmantris] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 14:14

Post #23 of 43 (3345 views)

Well now that we've gotten feasibility of the goal discussion out of the way...
Lets discuss the bike and run training. from the OP I have my bike planned out 4 focuses on vo2 then TTE @ threshold then long SS intervals at 80-90%
Does this sound reasonable?
My HIM plan was low volume T progression during marathon prep, vo2 max progression melded in with SS progression towards 4x30min@92%, then 3weeks again of T progression.

For the run:
4 Weeks building E mileage
4 weeks building time at M pace, ending week at peak milage.
4 weeks. Tempo, speed maintenance

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
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Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 14:23

Post #24 of 43 (3342 views)

A few things you could regarding your run is checking your lactate production at intended IM pace and is a good indication of your efficiency.
Another very important factor is fat oxidation rate because you will be running on on empty fuel tank. Can you run 3h15 on empty glycogen stores with a GI system under stress? Toss in some dehydration and heat stress and you can imagine what is in front of you :-) You can prepare for most of these things and maybe with perfect execution you'll nail your race.
Experience helps though. Taking your first IM conservatively is something I would recommend to everyone. It is way nicer to finish with the idea of a good race and the feeling that there is room for improvement than to crash physically and mentally and ending up demotivated and full of doubt.
You are still young so plenty of time to grow into it and have fun because fun is what it's all about :-)
Sam

Re: Transitioning from HIM to IM training [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 16, 20 17:32

Post #25 of 43 (3244 views)

Ryanppax wrote:

I guess I have been wildly misinformed on the run speed.

Times wise, I had a great day at Eagleman last year 3:48 running 6:31s. An ok day at Waterman's half at 4:16 running 7s I had come off an injury

I'll say it again, please give time and distances if you want feedback.

If you want the benefit of people's advice, please do them the courtesy of not having to translate paces to times.

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