How are you going to define "dude?" The definition you provide, I don't think, will be either as complete or reliable an indicator as you might think.

"Gender" is social.

"Sex" is biological.

Language is fluid, but that's 95% of the conversation there, dude.

Should competition be based on sex or gender? Both are complicated, although sex is probably less so. I don't know. But dismissive posts don't solve anything.

There should be just one "human" field. Best human wins.

Oh FFS, cut it out. You act like these genuine genetic conditions are commonplace. They aren't. You're talking about conditions that occur in 1/100th of a percent of population. And if you know anything about the conditions you'll know they don't generally lead the recipients down the "world championship caliber athlete" path, they are often serious medical conditions.

So I call bullshit. The definition of "dude" as the OP says sure as shit will be as complete and reliable as we need.

The man won that race and it's completely unfair.

Ok. I understand there are hermaphrodites. Yes they have both organs and in most all cases, unable to reproduce. Sure, they get to choose because they have both items. Go for it. The gods, your god, fate, their god, whatever played with their genetics. There are XX males and XY females - and they should choose what they want to be. Sure.

But if you are born with a twinkie - and it works as one should - and you can stick it somewhere and produce a baby (umbrella statement) then you are a dude...I dont care how you feel and if you are more comfortable in a dress and heels than awesome - go for it. You are STILL a dude..just a dude who thinks he is a lady in a dress.

If you are a woman and have a cave and can have a kid - that is awesome if you want to dress like a punk rocker dude and pretend ya have a cave. You are still a girl.

If I take ya home drunk one night - and you whip out a shlong (hopefully not bigger than mine) - I will be like "WHOA YOU ARE A DUDE" and guess what - you are a dude. I mean you are already there and we can cuddle sure, Im not going to be rude - but you is a dude.

How hard is a genome test now a days? With the tech, again, I don't know much about bio chem - but if you have XX then you were born a girl (with the super rare exception) and if you are an XY then you is a dude (with the exceptions). Therefore, hormones, the level of them you have - won't be a factor. If you lower your Testosterone and up your Estrogen because you WANT to be a girl - well my friend you still got XY so you go race with the dudes - and if you are good enough - then wear that dress on the podium if you feel the need. I will high five you and compliment your dress haha idc

It is really making sport unfair for people who know what they are.

"There should be just one "human" field. Best human wins. "

"I'm the best in the dojo, Jerry."

Two X chromosomes? No soup for you!


-bobo

-ps- I knew when I saw the thread title that some dorky gamma was gonna take up for this loon...

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"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."

1/100th of a percent (which I think you just made up) is still a lot of people. Also most you'd never know have intersex traits. You're just making up the "serious medical conditions" bit. Caster Semenya.


So penis and balls. If born with those, you can't race as a woman? You're going with that? Everyone else is cool?

"So penis and balls. If born with those, you can't race as a woman? You're going with that? Everyone else is cool?"

Exactly. That's exactly what the sane world is going with.

-bobo

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"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."

If I take ya home when Im drunk and you whip out a penis and balls - you is a dude and I need to stop drinking so much
If I take ya home when Im drunk and you whip out a vagina - you is a woman
If I take ya home when Im drunk and you whip out both - I need to really need to stop drinking.

but that COULD just be me haha

I just don't think you'll find that it's as complete a definition as you might think it is. But maybe the 90% solution is good enough here.

I'm not really arguing the other side. I know someone who competed with Rachel this past week, and wasn't happy about it.

On the other hand, I despise personal vitriol directed at the athletes in question. If rules are made to disqualify them from competing as women, fine. I could do without some of the childish banter in this thread.

Either you're a 12 year-old boy or you're over-compensating with your manly-man shtick.

Please try not to propogate emotional misinformation on transgender humans. If you've transistioned, you no longer have a 'twig and beries' as you so quaintly put it.

If you were to have taken a second to learn anything about this person, their background, and their athletic history, maybe you'd have a different opinion.
Velonews article

Molly Cameron, who has done so much for women's cycling

Plus, transgender athletes are tested far more than any AG-er, so where's the advantage?

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Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com

I suspect you're more motivated to stir up agitation and write lol posts than solve issues that disfavor women. But I could certainly be wrong.

Edit: And yes, "gender" is a fluid social construct of self-identification; sex is biological. They describe entirely different things. You'd be in a better position to debate the matter after you're able to distinguish the two.

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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

I completely agree. But once you are on Testosterone, game over. If a male can’t get a TUE to race because of low, natural hormone levels, then a female should also not be allowed to race on Testosterone because they are transitioning or have transitioned. A performance engancing drug is a performance enhancing drug, regardless of the social or biological gender of the person taking said drug.

Not a bad idea, this then clears up the other equal pay issue someone raised in another thread.

You can apparently wake up one day and decide on the spot if you're feeling more like a women or a man, the only way forward is to completely get rid of gender segregated sport and all compete equally as humans!

I agree -- both that biologically born men shouldn't be able to compete as women, and that some folks are just trying to make inflammatory statements.

If anyone is actually interesting in learning more on the subject, Radiolab did an interesting series about this recently -- "Gonads". There's a good episode around the XX and XY not being what we thought they were -- https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/gonads-xy.

Two other episodes go into detail about a couple of high profile examples in sports -https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/dutee and https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/dana.

It's not like she won the race, got up on the podium, whipped a dick out and said "Ha! Ha! I'm a dude! You suck, bitches!!!"

Although, clearly, some of you can't tell the difference

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Sex is less complicated as far as I can ascertain. http://gender.wikia.com/...mp;sort=alphabetical

So youd be ok letting transgender females fight biological females in mma or boxing? Just to make this clear, you would agree to let an equally trained transgender female fight an equally trained biological female? Lets not side step the question by saying that some women can beat men because of course a female ufc fighter can kick my ass. But if Khabib woke up tomorrow and identified as female it would be ok for him to fight biological women?

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2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

What/who are you responding to? Nobody in this thread has indicated that someone's stated identification as female should immediately and completely qualify them for women's competition.

Did you even read the post im replying to?

“Plus, transgender athletes are tested far more than any AG-er, so where's the advantage? “

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2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

Yes. ABarnes was specifically referring to the requirements placed on transgender women to qualify them for women's triathlon competition. Which Khabib obviously couldn't qualify for tomorrow by announcing womanhood, even if Khabib was a triathlete.

Im curious as to what these requirements are?What is required to ensure that someone who was born a man no longer has a physical advantage while competing against women? Can you please point me to the literature and research that conclusively shows this? You can test for testosterone but theres so many other factors that can give biological men an advantage. If testosterone levels are whats being used as a requirement then does this mean that men with extremely low testosterone can also compete against women?

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2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

Yes. I don't mean that to sound flippant, but I have a friend who is trans, so this subject I've spent some time learning and understanding this debate. He went thru two years of pysch testing and behavioral studies before undergoing any hormone treatment. This is on top of all the other day to day issues of being gay, or never feeling like a girl, or never feeling like a real person.

As far as Khabib, or anyone else, you can't just 'wake up an identify as female' and start competing.

already in boxing,
and MuyThai this subject has been addressed by sport governing bodies.


We had a young lady here in Chicago who was trans racing in the Cross Cup. And she freeking' lapped the Womens' 4 field. I was like 'no way, that's not right!'. Of course she catted up pretty quickly, but it was a bit of a kerfuffle at the time. This and my friends' transistion, as well as the example of Molly Cameron prompted me to read up more and understand better. Now I'm not afraid of transgendered people in athletics, no more so than any of us should be afraid of them in real life. What is driving this thread is fear and ignorance, or, at least, an inability to understand that not everything in nature is binary.

Interesting article here

and here

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Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com