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Train Like a Pro....???
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This topic got raised in the Hoffman thread and presents the potential for interesting discussion and I didn't want to derail that thread.


I think its mildly interesting to see what pros do for training. The reality is they are way faster than me and train far more than me. So, it isn't surprising that there volume is higher, their times are faster, and their training is different.

So, I do wonder how much applicability does their training really has to an average AGer. I certainly think we could cherry pick a random S/B/R workout from a pro and use it to our advantage. But, pros have a much deeper base of activity, experience, time, recovery etc., than an average AGer. I have always been very skeptical that we can apply, on a grander scale, the training done by pros and use it for our own application. Certainly, I understand there are some things we can learn/apply from pros. But, I tend to believe that level of applicability is very small. I would be very curious to hear from coaches who train both groups of athletes, in particular.
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I would say that I would be cautious in "down scaling" because imo it's the ability to actually "overtain" in S/B for hours on end of the pros that isn't all that applicable to the average AG athlete.

Suggesting they ran well because they had so much fitness in S/B and then applying that to AG'ers, is imo forgetting the context we are talking about.

It's like I once had a conversation with an athlete "you'll race better with one more swim per week".

Athlete- "that's cool, you can put it in my schedule and i'll simply miss it every single week, not because I dont want to not do it but because I have 138 other things I have to prioritize with family/work PLUS all the other workouts".


So it's why I cringed at Dev's comments because those pros have the means and availability to have large blocks of S/B, where in reality most AG athlete's dont. Especially at the IM distance.

ETA: And I think what Dev is showing is actually pretty accurate. I just don't see that it's applicable to the average AG athlete in their own context. If you are talking about getting to the pointy end, yes, but if we are applying that to the average athlete, it's just not feasible imo. But again the goals of each are completely different and have to be judged accordingly.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Nov 8, 19 8:53
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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That was my reaction too. Interested to hear more from Dev and others.
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I made an edit to even say I think what Dev is showcasing is probaly factually correct. I think he's making a good assessment just applying it to the wrong group of athletes. Most IM AG athletes imo are running poorly because their circumstances and desire to actual nail the event creates poor training. IE their training and racing an event imo they just shouldn't be, but we as a sport have put the IM as this holy grail that everyone wants to get to the event basically as quickly as possible. So imo most are "undertrained" in all 3 phases honestly, and then you stack that all together and then you have what you have.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I just turned 42 and am now only just riding (no running or swimming for 2 years). I have 20,000 miles on my bike for 2019 and holding right now as I'm taking a bit of a break.

I will try to keep it simple.

I still believe volume trumps everything. I'm probably going to be around 22,500 for the year and 1050 hours? Also do a strengthening routine.

My talent level is not super high. I never broke 16 or 33 in a 5K or 10k run, but I consistently beat guys that are in the 14 and 30 range for runners. They don't ride as much as I do.

The past couple years I've competed against and beaten or been competitive with some of the biggest off-road names in the country (and history) and can compete well on the road as well. If I can keep my tires inflated this year I hope to ride with the big boys at Dirty Kanza.

I touched a CTL of 170 this year year just before Gravel Worlds. When I quit riding my bike this week to rest I was at 155. I did my road racing this spring hovering about 130CTL. Here's a huge key for me. The huge volume gives me an almost freak like ability to recover. I had one miserably tired day this year and that was the day after Gravel Worlds. I did a 240 mile race 2 weeks before that and felt 100% 2 days after.

Balancing family, work, bikes is hard. But I love it. I love to ride and am blessed to be able to ride my bike in some incredible places. I've done almost all the famous climbs in the US. I get to ride my bike in Hawaii over Christmas. All that keeps me driven to be my best.

I might not be considered average, but it's a data point. The human body is incredible indeed.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Well, yes. But I was going to say that Dev’s comment also seems to assume that Hoffman’s IM training has applicability to all of us, regardless of the distance we are racing. It doesn’t account for the fact that there is triathlon life outside IM.
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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It doesn’t account for the fact that there is triathlon life outside IM.


------

Yes

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Coach Matt Dixon always makes a point on his purplepatch podcasts that his age-group training is very different from what he assigns to his pros, despite the similar underlying principles, due to the much greater non-triathlon stressors and constraints AGers typically have. He says its very different from just scaling down the volume.
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Coach Matt Dixon always makes a point on his purplepatch podcasts that his age-group training is very different from what he assigns to his pros, despite the similar underlying principles, due to the much greater non-triathlon stressors and constraints AGers typically have. He says its very different from just scaling down the volume.

Ever since I was featured as 'Bill' on his podcast (#69) I've been a religious listener to Matt Dixon. If you take Ben as an example and ballpark it at 25-30 hours of training per week and say that 15-20% is running, then that is around 4-5 hours. Scaling that down to the average AG athlete doesn't work at all, as in a 12 hour week running only 2 hours for 70.3 training ain't going to cut it! We mortal AG athletes have to balance things quite differently to get the swim and run in and try for decent bike volume. I'd absolutely love to bike 15+ hours a week, but that's close to my bigger total volume IM weeks. Family, work, and everything that comes with it is hugely different than a pro who can solely focus on training, rest, nutrition and strength (yes, the four pillars according to Dixon).

We have to find a balance of training vs recovery/sleep to make things work. I've tried this over the years, playing with less sleep and more training time, but you get to a point where it becomes a serious detriment to focus only on training time and have less priority on the sleep and recovery side of things. It's a hard line to walk, because as a competitive person I want to get as much training in as possible, while still feeling properly rested and ready for the next workout. Having no wife and kids and a very flexible work schedule things might make things very different, but that's only hypothetical.

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Nate - curious - I listened with avid interest to that podcast featuring you (I knew it was you, congrats on your subsequent KQ!) - what did you do differently in the KQ leadup if anything after that podcast? As much as I agree wholeheartedly with Dixon's methodoogy (rest well!) you were having really good results doing what you were doing, even if it required 3AM wakeups followed by a full day of work + kids. (Yeah I've done that too, but in my case, i found I did just as well if I slept in, and either pushed the higher quality work to another day, or even did a 30-40 minute very high quality hard session instead. Learned this the hard way, but I think you have to find your own limits.)
Last edited by: lightheir: Nov 8, 19 10:03
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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cmscat50 wrote:
I just turned 42 and am now only just riding (no running or swimming for 2 years). I have 20,000 miles on my bike for 2019 and holding right now as I'm taking a bit of a break.

I will try to keep it simple.

I still believe volume trumps everything. I'm probably going to be around 22,500 for the year and 1050 hours? Also do a strengthening routine.

My talent level is not super high. I never broke 16 or 33 in a 5K or 10k run, but I consistently beat guys that are in the 14 and 30 range for runners. They don't ride as much as I do.

The past couple years I've competed against and beaten or been competitive with some of the biggest off-road names in the country (and history) and can compete well on the road as well. If I can keep my tires inflated this year I hope to ride with the big boys at Dirty Kanza.

I touched a CTL of 170 this year year just before Gravel Worlds. When I quit riding my bike this week to rest I was at 155. I did my road racing this spring hovering about 130CTL. Here's a huge key for me. The huge volume gives me an almost freak like ability to recover. I had one miserably tired day this year and that was the day after Gravel Worlds. I did a 240 mile race 2 weeks before that and felt 100% 2 days after.

Balancing family, work, bikes is hard. But I love it. I love to ride and am blessed to be able to ride my bike in some incredible places. I've done almost all the famous climbs in the US. I get to ride my bike in Hawaii over Christmas. All that keeps me driven to be my best.

I might not be considered average, but it's a data point. The human body is incredible indeed.


I like the cycling emphasis too. Nice mileage!

I feel like a lot of improvement for triathlon can come from heavy cycling volume. Sounds awesome.

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I made an edit to even say I think what Dev is showcasing is probaly factually correct. I think he's making a good assessment just applying it to the wrong group of athletes. Most IM AG athletes imo are running poorly because their circumstances and desire to actual nail the event creates poor training. IE their training and racing an event imo they just shouldn't be, but we as a sport have put the IM as this holy grail that everyone wants to get to the event basically as quickly as possible. So imo most are "undertrained" in all 3 phases honestly, and then you stack that all together and then you have what you have.

This is why I’m done with full IM. I have seen what it takes for me to be competitive at the distance, and I want nothing to do with that amount of training again. I actually think it’s unhealthy for an average guy with a job and a family. HIM on the other hand is great. I can race competitively on a long ride of 2-3 hrs in training.
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [plant_based] [ In reply to ]
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I also don't think the inverse is applicable to pros whatsoever.

A pro couldn't scale up the amount of intensity (as a %) a lot of "quick" amateurs toss at themselves to be able to be quick on a time budget. Sure, they do more overall time than an amateur in the same upper zones.......but scale it as a % of the overall time budget.

I track my training loads by zone in an Excel sheet, and figure if I did the same for a pro it would look totally different. I don't have a ton of z1/z2 time in there but a really big spike and beefy contribution from z3 to z5 out of 6 zones. Cause I ain't got time for a bunch of z2.
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve seen what it does to marriages and like I said a long time ago whenever a married person wants to do IM....I ask to meet both of them to showcase what they BOTH are signing up for.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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cmscat50 wrote:
I'm probably going to be around 22,500 for the year and 1050 hours?

The huge volume gives me an almost freak like ability to recover.

One HUGE consideration that I don't think a lot of people take into account that most elite athletes have a much larger capacity for exercise than most.

I've coached athletes that used to be world class pro's then came back into the sport at 40+ yr old and having a family. Much, much higher tolerance to put in huge amounts of work than almost all the other athletes I coach. Where back to back to back to back to back 20-22h weeks would break the average age group athlete this particular athlete was practically bored with the training bc it was barely enough to make her tired at the end of the day/week

I've got a few other age group athletes that can tolerate and recover (huge point right there, without recovery did you even improve bro?) from 20+ hour of training for weeks/couple of months on end. I've got a few other athletes with very open schedules who max out around 16-17h bc 20-22h for 2-3 weeks in a row would break them. They've got the time to do 25h but their body says F you to them at a certain point

To echo what Brooks said: The # of athletes actually doing IM far exceeds the number of athletes that should actually do an IM. IMO at least 35% of every IM field would have a higher quality of life if they raced sprints through 70.3 distances and didn't do IM.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I would agree with all that.

The one thing I will add is that I used to be one of those athletes that could only take so much. As a runner I "thought" my breaking point was 70mpw. I got sick trying to do that much over and over. As a triathlete I was shelled doing maybe 15 hours / week for IM. I got injured doing that.

As a newer focused cyclist 10 hours / week was hard just a few years back. As I slowly climbed things began to change.

I don't know if over the years I'm smarter, better diet, better timed fueling / etc. Maybe it's the CBD oil! I came to triathlon because of back surgery. My back still kinda sucked in tri so I went to cycling only. Now I mostly forget about my back. Again I'm certainly smarter than I was when I was 25, but I'm also healthier, lighter, faster, stronger. I also recover a ton faster. And I'm 42. Maybe I'm lucky :)

Maybe someday I'll be smart enough to hire a coach :)

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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You can't train like a Pro unless you have the time and freedom to recover and maintain your body like a pro. Even then pros still have their family commitments like the rest of us - this is just their job, and it IS a job.

Another thing to remember is that even pro athletes are prone to over training and it happens more than you may think. I remember Chris McCormack dedicating an entire chapter to this topic in his book and explaining how to address fatigue that goes with heavy training loads. Joe Friel does this very well in his training books too.
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I think you’re classifying this wrong. Not all pros only train, eat and recover. I think we would all love to, but it’s nearly impossible to have any type of decent income let alone things like a 401k, health insurance etc.

Training like Ben does would be awesome and he’s lucky to do it. Guys and girls that train like him have the opportunity to get so much more aerobic work in without the cost of recovery from doing high intensity sessions in lieu of long aerobic work. They can do 3-4 longer rides a week and sprinkle in intensity on top of any other rides when the average age grouper can maybe ride 3-4 days a week and in that time they need to make the most of each session.

There are probably less than 60 long course pros that only do triathlon full time. So when you say it’s interesting to see what pros do for training you’re really only talking about the absolute tip of the spear.

I have no clue how most of the guys who finish outside of the podium on a regular basis support themselves but do tri full time. I would be so stressed out about my future that I think it would impact performance.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/4391866

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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [jakesaunders] [ In reply to ]
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No, I’m not the one classifying anything. Dev set the parameters in the Hoffman thread. I agree with you and it furthers my point....even in the pro ranks, one pro can’t train like another pro.
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [jakesaunders] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve always thought a time mix of 20% 50% 30% is a good goal for swim bike run training or thereabouts. So if doing 10 hours a week 5 hours of cycling is a good aim.
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Word, sorry about that. You're most definitely right about your second point.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/4391866

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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [jakesaunders] [ In reply to ]
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jakesaunders wrote:
Training like Ben does would be awesome and he’s lucky to do it.

i don't really think ''luck'' is a contributing factor.

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I have no clue how most of the guys who finish outside of the podium on a regular basis support themselves but do tri full time

family support, coaching, etc. but a lot of times they're just having a "no regrets" period of their life...(that last part is slightly pink)
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Lucky was a bad word choice. He’s obviously worked his ass off and has earned and now deserves his lifestyle.

To the second point you quoted - it would be interesting to see how many pros also coach. I feel like it’s a high percentage relative to the total number of registered pros. I’m sure it’s easy for them to use the “I’m a pro” so now I can coach mentality to fund their hobby when they’re really not qualified at all.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/4391866

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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
cmscat50 wrote:
To echo what Brooks said: The # of athletes actually doing IM far exceeds the number of athletes that should actually do an IM. IMO at least 35% of every IM field would have a higher quality of life if they raced sprints through 70.3 distances and didn't do IM.

The only way this ever happens is if the tri world stops with it's overwhelming obsession with IM. It's practically the only thing triathlon new sites cover, so it's makes it sound like that's the only distance that matters.
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Re: Train Like a Pro....??? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I think this is the problem with a lot of cut and paste Ironman training plans out there. Someone looks at what a pro is doing and says: “I will just scale that down by x% and market it to age groupers.” It just doesn’t work that way.

Professional athletes, in any sport, are in the top 1-2% and are blessed with great genetics. It’s kind of foolish to expect an average age grouper to emulate their programs.

I do think there is a lot that can be learned from pros, however. I really enjoyed devs questions and was glad to see that Hoff responded to them all.
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