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Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year?
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NOTE: Through my experience as a triathlete and the knowledge I have gained over the last few years through talking to many coaches from both running and triathlon, I have come to believe that this thread may be a little misleading. I hope to clarify this in the future and will reference it here once I do. As it stands, I'd recommend this thread only to standalone 5K runners and faster standalone 10K runners. The advice here, in general, is too aggressive for most triathletes.

-BarryP 8-21-2008


The weekend is over and I'm sure the 1st thing that comes to your mind when as you get in to work on Monday is, "should I hit the track today?" Well, I am going to attempt to answer that question.

For starters, let me say that I am going to give a very generic "cookie cutter" answer. The focus of this post is mainly to give yourself an idea if you are in the right ballpark with your training routine. I can tell you what I have seen work for most people and what has proven to fail.

For starters, what I am talking about is what Jack Daniels refers to as "Interval Training." Specifically this is considered "V02max training." There are many many many diferent ways to do intervals on a track for many many different reasons. Here I am talking about ONE specific type of training that will likely have a very large impact on 5K to 10K races.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

I am talking about repeats on the track with jogging breaks. 8x800 meters with 400 meter jog, OR 6x1200, OR 4x1600. They can be done many different ways, but you may recognize these in your own workouts.

(EDIT: Intervals of 3 to 5 minutes with 2-3 minutes of recovery)

HOW FAST?

These intervals should typically be done at somewhere between "current" 3K to 5K race pace. I like to see people start off slower and then progress as they get warmed up. Many, many, many people run these WAY too hard!!! The goal is NOT to hammer yourself into the ground. The goal is to merely stimulate your body to make improvements with the least amount of stress. Running at a pace that is just faster than 5K race stimulates you body to improve its V02max WAY more than, say, an easy jog. (Note: if you are particularly slower you should simply use a pace that you can maintain for 12 - 15 minutes).

In general, if you cannot immediately go into a jog after each interval, then you are likely running them too hard. Rest intervals should be at about "easy running" pace for about 2-2:30 minutes (I like 400meters).

HOW CAN SLOWER BE BETTER?

It isn't. Faster is better. Faster will stimulate greater improvements. No pain, no gain. Right? HOWEVER, you have to consider the tradeoffs. Running is an impact sport. The harder you train, the more stress you place on your body. The more stress you place on your body, the longer it takes to recover. The tradeoff is that you can either A) do one killer monster workout a week or B) do a good, solid workout and then come back later in the week and do another one (ie a tempo run, a long run, more weekly mileage, etc.).

Think about it this way. Would you rather make $120 today or make $100 today and $100 on Wednesday? Runners have to constantly think of these tradeoffs. Again, you want to get the biggest bang for your buck. You want the most out of your workout with the least amount of stress.

HOW MUCH?

I've found that most people seem to get the most benefits training around 6000 to 8000 meters of total "faster running" during a workout. As a rule, if you find yourself getting slower or unable to maintain sub 5K pace, then its time to quit. In fact, if you feel like you really have to dig deep on that last 300 to hold pace, then end the workout and save yourself for another day.

Don't forget my "go immediately into a jog" rule. It is very easy to cheat yourself and walk a 400 in 5 minutes and then run another hard interval.

WHAT TIME OF YEAR?

Another big mistake I see are the people who kill themselves from March until September. If you read my post on How YOU can get faster, you may remember how I talked about periodization. These workouts are very stressful. To do them means that the rest of your week must be compromised in some manner. You will have to run less. Running less will hurt you in the long run. These workouts give you very good yet very short term results. You want to do them as you lead up to your goal race.

Typically you'll want to back out from your goal race (assuming 5K or 10K) anywhere from 4 weeks to 8 weeks (or even more for elites) and begin your workouts there. If you are diligent about keeping a log, you will notice a point where you stop seeing improvement. THAT is likely how long it takes YOU to maximize the benefits of this training. As you get better over the years, this period should last longer. You'll have to use your best judgment from season to season.

SOME SAY YOU SHOULD DO INTERVALS YEAR ROUND.

Yes and no. What I wrote about above should only be done for several weeks. Ideally I like to see this "sharpening" phase done twice a year. However, there ARE other types of workouts that are far less intense that can be done in an "interval fashion" year round. Shorter, quicker workouts like 8x200 at faster than 3K pace (but not sprinting) OR longer, slower LT workouts like 4x5 minute cruise intervals at slower than 10k pace with 1 minute rest can both be done more often throughout the year.

Anyway, I hope I accomplished my goal. Some people really don't understand exactly how these workouts are thrown together. Especially if they come from a swimming or cycling background, they may be enticed into training much harder than necessary during their running workouts and, thus, compromising other aspects of their training in the process. Always think of the tradeoffs while you are doing your workouts. More, harder, faster, longer, more often could prevent you from completing other workouts during the week.

The above is based off of my experiences as a coach and athlete. Everyone has their own sweet spot when it comes to training. Some workouts will work better for very talented and well trained athletes and may go beyond the envelope described above. Otherworkouts may "better stimulate v02max improvement" as proven in the laboratory. I am not going to attempt to dispute any research that shows it. I can only say that these types of workouts done in this fashion are being used in many successful college and high school programs and, if anything, can serve as a strategy that may take you to the next level of your training.

*sigh*.....now for the spell checker.........done (damn, dyslexia sucks!)


EDIT: Runtraining13

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Last edited by: BarryP: Aug 21, 08 14:48
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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another great article Barry, you got me excited when you mentioned Jack Daniels and Interval training. I was picturing myself with the shot glass and a stopwatch ;-)

Mike

----------------------------------
Owner/General Manager North Central Cyclery, Dekalb IL
http://www.NorthCentralCyclery.com
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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another great piece of work Barry - keep it coming!

quick question - how many days out from a marathon should my last quality speed session (per above) be?

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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The weekend is over and I'm sure the 1st thing that comes to your mind when as you get in to work on Monday is, "should I hit the track today?"



LOL! I actually did think that this morning :) wound up running on the treadmill, though.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
The weekend is over and I'm sure the 1st thing that comes to your mind when as you get in to work on Monday is, "should I hit the track today?" Well, I am going to attempt to answer that question.

For starters, let me say that I am going to give a very generic "cookie cutter" answer. The focus of this post is mainly to give yourself an idea if you are in the right ballpark with your training routine. I can tell you what I have seen work for most people and what has proven to fail.

For starters, what I am talking about is what Jack Daniels refers to as "Interval Training." Specifically this is considered "V02max training." There are many many many diferent ways to do intervals on a track for many many different reasons. Here I am talking about ONE specific type of training that will likely have a very large impact on 5K to 10K races.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

I am talking about repeats on the track with jogging breaks. 8x800 meters with 400 meter jog, OR 6x1200, OR 4x1600. They can be done many different ways, but you may recognize these in your own workouts.

(EDIT: Intervals of 3 to 5 minutes with 2-3 minutes of recovery)

HOW FAST?

These intervals should typically be done at somewhere between "current" 3K to 5K race pace. I like to see people start off slower and then progress as they get warmed up. Many, many, many people run these WAY too hard!!! The goal is NOT to hammer yourself into the ground. The goal is to merely stimulate your body to make improvements with the least amount of stress. Running at a pace that is just faster than 5K race stimulates you body to improve its V02max WAY more than, say, an easy jog. (Note: if you are particularly slower you should simply use a pace that you can maintain for 12 - 15 minutes).

In general, if you cannot immediately go into a jog after each interval, then you are likely running them too hard. Rest intervals should be at about "easy running" pace for about 2-2:30 minutes (I like 400meters).

HOW CAN SLOWER BE BETTER?

It isn't. Faster is better. Faster will stimulate greater improvements. No pain, no gain. Right? HOWEVER, you have to consider the tradeoffs. Running is an impact sport. The harder you train, the more stress you place on your body. The more stress you place on your body, the longer it takes to recover. The tradeoff is that you can either A) do one killer monster workout a week or B) do a good, solid workout and then come back later in the week and do another one (ie a tempo run, a long run, more weekly mileage, etc.).

Think about it this way. Would you rather make $120 today or make $100 today and $100 on Wednesday? Runners have to constantly think of these tradeoffs. Again, you want to get the biggest bang for your buck. You want the most out of your workout with the least amount of stress.

HOW MUCH?

I've found that most people seem to get the most benefits training around 6000 to 8000 meters of total "faster running" during a workout. As a rule, if you find yourself getting slower or unable to maintain sub 5K pace, then its time to quit. In fact, if you feel like you really have to dig deep on that last 300 to hold pace, then end the workout and save yourself for another day.

Don't forget my "go immediately into a jog" rule. It is very easy to cheat yourself and walk a 400 in 5 minutes and then run another hard interval.

WHAT TIME OF YEAR?

Another big mistake I see are the people who kill themselves from March until September. If you read my post on How YOU can get faster, you may remember how I talked about periodization. These workouts are very stressful. To do them means that the rest of your week must be compromised in some manner. You will have to run less. Running less will hurt you in the long run. These workouts give you very good yet very short term results. You want to do them as you lead up to your goal race.

Typically you'll want to back out from your goal race (assuming 5K or 10K) anywhere from 4 weeks to 8 weeks (or even more for elites) and begin your workouts there. If you are diligent about keeping a log, you will notice a point where you stop seeing improvement. THAT is likely how long it takes YOU to maximize the benefits of this training. As you get better over the years, this period should last longer. You'll have to use your best judgment from season to season.

SOME SAY YOU SHOULD DO INTERVALS YEAR ROUND.

Yes and no. What I wrote about above should only be done for several weeks. Ideally I like to see this "sharpening" phase done twice a year. However, there ARE other types of workouts that are far less intense that can be done in an "interval fashion" year round. Shorter, quicker workouts like 8x200 at faster than 3K pace (but not sprinting) OR longer, slower LT workouts like 4x5 minute cruise intervals at slower than 10k pace with 1 minute rest can both be done more often throughout the year.

Anyway, I hope I accomplished my goal. Some people really don't understand exactly how these workouts are thrown together. Especially if they come from a swimming or cycling background, they may be enticed into training much harder than necessary during their running workouts and, thus, compromising other aspects of their training in the process. Always think of the tradeoffs while you are doing your workouts. More, harder, faster, longer, more often could prevent you from completing other workouts during the week.

The above is based off of my experiences as a coach and athlete. Everyone has their own sweet spot when it comes to training. Some workouts will work better for very talented and well trained athletes and may go beyond the envelope described above. Otherworkouts may "better stimulate v02max improvement" as proven in the laboratory. I am not going to attempt to dispute any research that shows it. I can only say that these types of workouts done in this fashion are being used in many successful college and high school programs and, if anything, can serve as a strategy that may take you to the next level of your training.

*sigh*.....now for the spell checker.........done (damn, dyslexia sucks!)






Thanks for taking the time to write that down. Some great info in there.




------------------------------------------------------------
Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.
Last edited by: callidus: Oct 9, 06 7:42
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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As always, it depends on the individual. Most marathon programs I've seen have people begin their taper about 3 weeks out. You may want to do a little of thi sstuff with 2 weeks to go, but cut way back on the intensity.

Becareful with marathon training and interval workouts. They are a much lower priority than LT and endurance training. Make sure you aren't compromising your training volume by doing too many of these too hard.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Great information!

What kind of base should a person have before doing these workouts? How much weekly mileage should a person typically be doing? 5K race pace? Around here all the 5Ks I do are very hilly and my race times are all over the place. Are you basing 5K race pace on what a person would run on a track? Track surface? There are 2 tracks near me - one is rubberized asphalt and one is cinder/packed dirt. I do most of my track running on the cinder track. Is one better than another?

I've never really done much speed work and that's probably why my running is not very fast. I always attributed it to not starting as a runner until age 45. Now at age 50 with weekly mileage of 35-40 I find I have decent endurance, but no speed. I continually get smoked by guys in my AG. Is it really possible for someone like me to get faster at my age or am I just fooling myself?

Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BP,

Great info. and well-summarized. Going back to MattSF's famous 'cake' comment, at what point should the average runner even try intervals? My buddy runs about 8 miles / week in the winter (plus 2 hrs / week on his trainer) and hits the track with me in March or April and its a total joke, but he thinks its helps him. I don't even try it until I am at 25-30 mpw ... What's the ruleof thumb for building into genuine intervals?

(As in #1. run 4x a week first ... #2. add strides 2-3x a week ... #3. Add hills ... #4. add tempo ... then finall try 4-5 weeks of intervals?? or what?)

thanks,

-TB
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Nice article.

Using a great coach this year (Mike Plumb) and having him regulate my efforts during track workouts has been a huge help. Similar to your post these workouts go from sharpening phase to tempo based stuff depending on where I am in the season in relation to my 'A' races.

Track work has not just helped my speed this year, with warm up, recovery thrown in it’s often a good 6-8mile total in a short period of time. I've also found track great for building up mental toughness and pain tolerance.

---------------------------
http://www.nunnsontherun.com
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Spankingly excellent stuff!

Regarding LT Cruise Intervals, I've been a little dubious of their actual worth for some time. It seems to me that running at 10K pace is too hard (and a bit to variable given different individual paces) and the intervals are a bit too short unless you're at the point in your running career that you're only just introducing any harder running at all.

It seems to me that they're better placed as a stepping stone towards the tempo run (which I prefer to see done at a slower pace and for longer - say v90 or 1/2Marathon pace for 20-40 minutes).

Also, do you have a particular opinion about pylos?


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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [Tri2HaveFun] [ In reply to ]
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5K times are track or flat course times.

Cinder tracks are ~1 to 3 seconds slower per lap.

In my expereince, this interval work should take 30 -60 seconds off of a 5K time in less than 8 weeks. I've never coached anyone in their 50's but I can't imagine it's too different. There are some smoking fast 50 year olds where I train who seem to benefit from interval training.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [TBinMT] [ In reply to ]
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(As in #1. run 4x a week first ... #2. add strides 2-3x a week ... #3. Add hills ... #4. add tempo ... then finall try 4-5 weeks of intervals?? or what?)

_______________________________________

Looks good. I like to add in the tempo training a lot earlier, though not as intense as it would be later in the season. As long as I'm "in shape" I'll do at least 3x1600 repeats at LT. When I'm training hard it may be a continuous run of 40 minutes at LT.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [fade] [ In reply to ]
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It seems to me that they're better placed as a stepping stone towards the tempo run (which I prefer to see done at a slower pace and for longer - say v90 or 1/2Marathon pace for 20-40 minutes).
*********************

I agree. I'll also do them to transition to longer tempo runs. I might do 20 minutes one week and then 6 x mile the next hoping to build up to a continuous 6 mile tempo run. I keep the breaks down to 200 meters.

***********************

Also, do you have a particular opinion about pylos?

***********************

Do you mean drills? (high knees, butt kickers, skips, etc?) I do some year round. I think the shorter the distance the more of a priority they are. The longer the distance and the slower the runner, th eless of a priority. Some one training to run @ 4:00/mile pace stands to gain a lot. Some one running at 9:00/mile pace would probably be better off working on other aspects of their training (stretching, yoga, sit ups, more S-B-R, etc.)

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Do you mean drills? (high knees, butt kickers, skips, etc?) I do some year round. I think the shorter the distance the more of a priority they are. The longer the distance and the slower the runner, th eless of a priority. Some one training to run @ 4:00/mile pace stands to gain a lot. Some one running at 9:00/mile pace would probably be better off working on other aspects of their training (stretching, yoga, sit ups, more S-B-R, etc.)
______________________________________________

That's the sort of stuff I'm talking about (also bounding, fast feet, and even hopping...), you see I was roughly of the same mind as you until I went to interview a biomechanist at Brunel University here in the UK. His take was very interesting, though theoretical. It was that the plyos can 'force' a runner to develop better firing patterns and more efficient energy return in their tendons and muscles by emphasising weaker areas and overcompensation. And it seems to me that the slower runners I see out there could actually benefit from this MORE than the fast ones (who tend to be fairly balanced and have 'good form' already) because they tend to slog along ingraining their existing problems rather than addressing them (somewhat in the manner of swim technique).

I believe Paulo has some opinions on thsi matter. Perhaps he'll chime in...


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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I think he meant plyometrics (bounding, depth jumping, etc. You know, the stuff that kills your knees :-).

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Actually I suppose I should make the distinction between low-impact plyos (running, strides, skipping, skip marching, bounding, hopping, 2-leg jumps, fast feet) and high-impact plyos (depth jumping, box jumps, uphill bounding). The former I like for running (particularly when done on close-cut, flat grass), the latter I do not.


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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [fade] [ In reply to ]
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The effect of plyometric training on distance running performance.



Human Movement Department, School of Leisure, Sport and Tourism, University of Technology, Sydney, PO Box 222, Lindfield NSW 2070, Australia. r.spurrs@uts.edu.au

Previous research has reported that plyometric training improves running economy (RE) and ultimately distance-running performance, although the exact mechanism by which this occurs remains unclear. This study examined whether changes in running performance resulting from plyometric training were related to alterations in lower leg musculotendinous stiffness (MTS). Seventeen male runners were pre- and post-tested for lower leg MTS, maximum isometric force, rate of force development, 5-bound distance test (5BT), counter movement jump (CMJ) height, RE, VO(2max), lactate threshold (Th(la)), and 3-km time. Subjects were randomly split into an experimental (E) group which completed 6 weeks of plyometric training in conjunction with their normal running training, and a control (C) group which trained as normal. Following the training period, the E group significantly improved 3-km performance (2.7%) and RE at each of the tested velocities, while no changes in VO(2max) or Th(la) were recorded. CMJ height, 5BT, and MTS also increased significantly. No significant changes were observed in any measures for the C group. The results clearly demonstrated that a 6-week plyometric programme led to improvements in 3-km running performance. It is postulated that the increase in MTS resulted in improved RE. We speculate that the improved RE led to changes in 3-km running performance, as there were no corresponding alterations in VO(2max) or Th(la).



Improvement in running economy after 6 weeks of plyometric training.

Department of Health and Kinesiology, The University of Texas at Tyler, Tyler, Texas 75799, USA.

This study determined whether a 6-week regimen of plyometric training would improve running economy (i.e., the oxygen cost of submaximal running). Eighteen regular but not highly trained distance runners (age = 29 +/- 7 [mean +/- SD] years) were randomly assigned to experimental and control groups. All subjects continued regular running training for 6 weeks; experimental subjects also did plyometric training. Dependent variables measured before and after the 6-week period were economy of running on a level treadmill at 3 velocities (women: 2.23, 2.68, and 3.13 m.s(-1); men: 2.68, 3.13, and 3.58 m.s(-1)),VO(2)max, and indirect indicators of ability of muscles of lower limbs to store and return elastic energy. The last were measurements during jumping tests on an inclined (20 degrees ) sled: maximal jump height with and without countermovement and efficiencies of series of 40 submaximal countermovement and static jumps. The plyometric training improved economy (p < 0.05). Averaged values (m.ml(-1).kg(-1)) for the 3 running speeds were: (a). experimental subjects-5.14 +/- 0.39 pretraining, 5.26 +/- 0.39 posttraining; and (b). control subjects-5.10 +/- 0.36 pretraining, 5.06 +/- 0.36 posttraining. The VO(2)max did not change with training. Plyometric training did not result in changes in jump height or efficiency variables that would have indicated improved ability to store and return elastic energy. We conclude that 6 weeks of plyometric training improves running economy in regular but not highly trained distance runners; the mechanism must still be determined.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Last edited by: klehner: Oct 9, 06 9:05
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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You forgot the paper from the Finn's, the first one ;-)
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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and (tentatively) those would seem to support the notion that it's primarily firing patterns and imbalance correction that are improved by plyos...

I would be interested to see what sort of plyos they were given to do.


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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [fade] [ In reply to ]
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Read the papers and you will find answers to both your questions.
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [fade] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I would be interested to see what sort of plyos they were given to do.


I believe one of the studies heavily relied on depth jumping off of two story buildings.

(and, Paulo, I didn't "forget" any study: I'm not PubMed, I just did a PubMed search on plyometric/plyometrics, and these were the only applicable studies. I did see one that said that plyometrics/weights didn't help flip turn performance, though)

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Gosh! Do you think so! That never occurred to me!

*sigh*


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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I though that was the paper about the effects of base-jumping on running performance.


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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I would be interested to see what sort of plyos they were given to do.


I believe one of the studies heavily relied on depth jumping off of two story buildings.
That is why I recommend plyometrics here on ST.
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Re: Track Workouts - How fast, how often, what time of year? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Barry for a better and more experienced runner, do you recommend more threshold work, and earlier in the season. I know I learned that as soon as a person is in shape to do threshold work they should be. As a collegiate runner this usually meant the third week into summer training, around early June, about 20 minutes worth. Working up to 45 minutes at a time by November.

Now when it comes to triathlon, I am racing longer and come into the run section more anaerobically taxed. So to me it makes sense to do more total threshold work, more often. I am doing a two part periodized season next year, first for early June then for September/ October. I am going to be starting threshold work soon. What about interval track work? If my body can take it, would November/December sound about right?
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