Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
With the money coming from where? Races I'm afraid are a capitalist venture and public interest generates sponsors which in turn generates bigger races and prize purses. If no one stands to make money from a race it won't be run and unfortunately that seems to be the case.


Fortunately in triathlon where no one cares about pros we can use all the age grouper entries to cross subsidize both mens and women's racing (there was a time when triathletes actually cared about pros). I would generally agree with you that there are more men than women following sport in general, so the advertising eyeballs generally come from men. I am watching Premier League Football right now and there is no women's soccer to watch on TV EVER aside from the Olympics. So cycling is not the only sport with this challenge.

But, why is it any more interesting watching a men's cycling race than a women's race. The reality is that none of us can visually tell how much faster the men are going. I can visually watch women's soccer and men's soccer and see a big gap in ability level. In cycling, I can't see anything. In XC skiing, I can't see any difference. In swimming I can't see any difference. So really the only diff between men's and women's cycling is just how the racing is presented to the audience. This requires some level of effort by the media and race organizers to actually present the sport. This is a chicken and egg argument. As I said earlier, the battles between Jeannie Longo and Maria Canins in the 80's in the women's tour and giro were pretty legendary if you got to watch, and read about it (I am a French speaker, so got to follow it all in the print publication L'Equipe).

There is "no interest" in women's cycling, because WE (I use that collectively as it is generally men in their 40's to 60's) controlling media and race organization don't have a will to present women's racing. There is no good reason why men cycling fans can't get equally excited by watching women's racing vs men's racing. The Rio Olympics road race on the women's side, was one of the most interesting bike races of 2016 and women's track is just as interesting as men's.

The no interest is due to lack of will by media and organizers, it has nothing to do with the actual sports competition. The only way to change this is media and organizations. Triathlon generally got it right out of the gate. In XC skiing, the women stars are the racing is generally well received by media and organizers have to have the women's races, so it's not even an option to cut their racing out of the loop.

Most of the sports where there is "no interest" in women's racing are older established pro sports where the media is locked into showing men's racing and competition only (think big 4 in North America, Soccer, Cycling)

The reality is the public demand what we watch and the media follow if there is an opportunity to make money as well. In all honesty being a male in the age group you specified I have watch women's road cycling just like I have watched women's tennis. Now this isn't a sexist thing but neither interest me and I turn them off purely based on having watched what the men can do. In cycling the men's attacks are more ferocious and more of them, and the sprints I can definitely faster, more competitive sprinters and more exciting to watch. As with men's tennis being more physical, faster and bigger shots. Yes I enjoy watching women's swimming, track cycling, downhill skiiing and certain sports seems shorter events against the clock but I don't seek them out like I do the mens. The reality is that men watch sport and women don't as much so you have the situation we are in. Did you watch the winter olympics half pipe and slope style and tell me one wasn't more exciting than the other? One I watched, the other I went and did something. Sad to say but that is just the reality of what we are dealing with in a capitalist society. Maybe based on that being once again a male in the age group specified, maybe stuck a little on tradition and like seeing pretty girls for no other reason would like to keep the podium girls. All for the girls races having attractive young guys hand them a trophy at their races...
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [Emilio] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This would be fine if it where coherent. Podium and umbrella girls are being dropped because it objectifies women, cycling, formula 1, etc. But... no the same people have no issue to compe in Dubai, Abu-Dhabi, Qatar, etc. where women don't even have the same rights. It sounds like BS to me.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
nickwhite wrote:
I can't believe no one has replied to this yet.

Emilio, on one hand, I agree with you. On the other hand, it's sad to see such a deep tradition of cycling go away.

I think if having podium girls adds to objectifying women, and perpetuates a culture of sexism, then it's fine to go away. And it's a tradition worth abandoning. So I applaud them for doing the right thing.

Disagree. It's like doing away with "cheerleaders" for foot/basketball.

Take away the beautiful women and men have less desire to succeed in X activity.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [original] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
original wrote:

Take away the beautiful women and men have less desire to succeed in X activity.


Oh come on. The podium girls have eff-all to do with any pro cyclists motivation to reach a TdF podium.

Most sports have no podium girl equivalent. Guys compete because they want to clobber the shit out of each other. And if women are a factor, it's more about the women you're allowed to have social interactions with, not podium girls.
Last edited by: trail: Mar 3, 18 19:51
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HuffNPuff wrote:
Chalk up another pseudo victory for the PC crowd ... and one more reason not to watch the TDF.

I have been here for a few years. This PC was my last straw. I know it does not matter but i will not be back.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [dennis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dennis wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
Chalk up another pseudo victory for the PC crowd ... and one more reason not to watch the TDF.


I have been here for a few years. This PC was my last straw. I know it does not matter but i will not be back.

I don't know what it is with this modern penchant for immediately boycotting something at the drop of a hat. I'm fighting this with half my friends who are "boycotting" Giro/Camelback over gun things, and the other half who are "boycotting" REI over gun things.

I hope this social media penchant for the self-announced personal boycott is a short-lived phenomena. Though I tend to think that about 50% of them are by people who weren't going to watch/buy the thing anyway, and the other 50% are just lying for rhetorical purposes.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [dennis] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
PC can go to hell (not pink)
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I certainly can't eyeball the speed difference between the men and the women in pro cycling.

I do think there is a significant difference in the style of racing as a result of there being much less strength in depth in women's cycling. Whether that makes for a more or less interesting race is down to personal preference, but it does seem that the podium in the women's races tends to come from a smaller pool of riders, and that the stronger women can win in multiple different types of event where the men have to specialise more. E.g. riders like Vos and van der Breggen palmares include top stage races, one day classics, time trials, and in Vos' case track cycling as well. Go back 30-40 years and the men's sport was similar with the likes of Merckx and Hinault being able to win almost any format, but these days that doesn't happen. Some of the top stage racers are competitive time triallists, but they don't have the speed and punching power to win classics. Some of the top time triallists have the punch to win classics in a breakaway, but can't get up the hills quick enough to win the grand tours.

You're right that that's a chicken and egg situation - the depth should build as more money and attention attracts more women to turn pro. Whether it ever catches up with the men's sport is questionable. The reality is that watching cycling is as much about the history and the tradition as it is about the spectacle. Most of my enjoyment of getting into the Tour de France as a kid was exploring that history. Learning about the legends of the sport, the iconic battles up famous mountains, etc. The sense that you were watching something that mattered, simply because of the number of people out lining the route and the amount of coverage. The women's sport can't recreate that any time soon. Which is why I can't help but think that their best chance is to hold races at the same time and venues as the men's events where the media coverage and spectators are already there - I don't think it is coincidence that many of the best-known sportswomen are from tennis and the various Olympic sports where the women's competitions take place alongside the men. Whether it's logistically possible (and safe) to fit in meaningful women's stages on the same days and roads as the men in the Tour de France is another question.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
spntrxi wrote:
PC can go to hell (not pink)

What is political correctness? It's an attempt to use more inclusive language or challenge discrimination against a historically disadvantaged group. It can be clumsy but it is an attempt to be better or do the right thing.

In the context of this thread I'd ask why trying to make society a bit less sexist is so infuriating for you? Does people trying to do the right thing upset you so much that you would damn them?
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [OddSlug] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
OddSlug wrote:
spntrxi wrote:
PC can go to hell (not pink)


What is political correctness? It's an attempt to use more inclusive language or challenge discrimination against a historically disadvantaged group. It can be clumsy but it is an attempt to be better or do the right thing.

In the context of this thread I'd ask why trying to make society a bit less sexist is so infuriating for you? Does people trying to do the right thing upset you so much that you would damn them?


You exemplify one issue many have with the PC crowd. You automatically assume that what you're doing is the right thing and the other side is the wrong thing.

As for your first couple sentences, it shows another issue many have. The new "hip" thing to do is to throw a big F you to 99% of the population in order to accommodate 1% and then go on to proclaim yourself as progressive and a positive difference maker.

In regards to sexism, which of the following is more sexist?

-Allowing women who happen to be beautiful use their talents to work in a job they enjoy that allows quite a few cool experiences.

-Tell them that because they're beautiful they can't do what they want because someone else says beautiful women can't use their beauty to their advantage.
Last edited by: Hammer Down: Mar 4, 18 10:10
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [Hammer Down] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think you think I'm trying to ban podium girls.

I tried to define something to try and understand the rage in what I responded to. Then I asked a question. Personally I won't miss podium girls but that is besides the point. I haven't suggested banning them and actually I haven't suggested anything. If you did want to discuss why the whole PC thing is so incendiary then I'd be listening.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [Hammer Down] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Last time I checked, the female population was much, much higher than 1%.

And who said pretty girls can't race too? (amongst other talents)

I'd love to see the podium girl $$$ being spent on building a TdF race for women instead.

Excellent decision TdF.

To respond to OP, doesn't bother me if it's cheek or lip to cheek :)
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [snail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
snail wrote:
Last time I checked, the female population was much, much higher than 1%.

And who said pretty girls can't race too? (amongst other talents)

I'd love to see the podium girl $$$ being spent on building a TdF race for women instead.

Excellent decision TdF.

To respond to OP, doesn't bother me if it's cheek or lip to cheek :)

So they HAVE to race? Maybe allow them their own free will. Some women do race. Some work in cycling in other capacities. There isn't much of a market for it even if they did build a women's TdF with the same resources they do with the men. It just isn't nearly as interesting or competitive, which is why it doesn't currently exist on the same level.

I usually turn off the race after the finish so I couldn't care less if there are podium girls, but to act like you're progressive and making a positive difference by banning them is simple-minded.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I agree that the best way would be to have a women's TdF that has the same stage finish city on the same day. Would it even be possible? I don't know, but where there is a will, there is a way. It seems like it "COULD" be possible to have a women's circuit race in the finish city that uses some of the same roads that the men will finish on. Finish the women 2 hrs before the men so that eyeballs can then go to the TV for the final 2 hrs of the men's race. Podium ceremony for all with the men. 10-14 stages, of lengths common for women's racing not that I am advocating shorter women's races, mainly that something is better than nothing, and you can fit in 2+ hrs of women's racing during the first 2 hours of the men's race when not much is generally going on.

I do agree that the most eyeballs go to women's sport when there is a concurrent men's event. May as well go with the flow.

All the talk about beautiful people having the right to work is cool provided there is a job to be done. If there is no job in the TdF to apply the beauty to, they still have a right to that job, its just that the corporation is not offering to fill that position. A beautiful or ugly person can apply till they are blue in the face, but if there is no job opening, well, you can keep applying and want the job, but it's not gonna happen. All kinds of positions get cut by companies even when we want to keep those jobs....been on both sides of the chopping block. No one gets to keep a job because they just want the job. It really depends on the company opening up positions (or not).
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Strade Bianche just did something similar I believe, where the women's race went off before the men. Granted it is a much bigger procedure to put on a TDF stage than it is with SB. The issues would be:

1) Do you televise the women's race or the beginning of the men? Most people would much rather watch the beginning of the men which defeats the purpose of doing them on the same day.

2) Who pays for all the extra resources to keep the course safe and closed for the women? The mens race will draw the crowd and drastically increase the cost of putting on the race, but having a women's race the same day won't really bring in any more money to make up for it.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [Hammer Down] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hammer Down wrote:
Strade Bianche just did something similar I believe, where the women's race went off before the men. Granted it is a much bigger procedure to put on a TDF stage than it is with SB. The issues would be:

1) Do you televise the women's race or the beginning of the men? Most people would much rather watch the beginning of the men which defeats the purpose of doing them on the same day.

2) Who pays for all the extra resources to keep the course safe and closed for the women? The mens race will draw the crowd and drastically increase the cost of putting on the race, but having a women's race the same day won't really bring in any more money to make up for it.

Maybe split screen coverage with the men's race in a box in the top right corner early in the day....if something major happens you flip the boxes to provide the update on the men's race and then go back to the women's racing...the reality is not many watch the first few hours of the men's racing as it is generally a snoozefest, unless it is a 100K long stage and you have Contador attacking from the starting line...since he's gone, may as well watch a womens' race filled with attacks.

As for who pays for the costs, I realize that this is wishful thinking that ASO will pony up...but we can hope...even a 9 day race (2 weekends and the week in between) would be awesome and even if they are a bunch of city center crits, plus a hill stage or two and a TT...just something.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Herbert wrote:
Women are not simply ornaments. Podium girls are really outdated.

Yes it is time to stop forcing women to do this... Oh wait, they aren't forced at all. This is the stupidest thing ever. Stupid PC culture
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [Hammer Down] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It is completely possible to build up the same interest for a women's race as the men's, this has happened in some sports but probably more challenging for the ones that have been historically male dominated. It is up to the TdF to set the right tone and inject the adequate resources and publicity to make this happen.

Personally, not a fan of TdF (the podium girls aren't a good look to me but not the reason I don't watch it) but if there's a women's race, I would certainly watch and support it.
Last edited by: snail: Mar 4, 18 13:06
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
I agree that the best way would be to have a women's TdF that has the same stage finish city on the same day. Would it even be possible?

I was at about 5 or 6 stages last year. No way they have room for another 10 buses, teams, crews....Most villages they go through are maxed out. The roads, hotels etc could probably not absorb it.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [velocomp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
velocomp wrote:
Herbert wrote:
Women are not simply ornaments. Podium girls are really outdated.

Yes it is time to stop forcing women to do this... Oh wait, they aren't forced at all. This is the stupidest thing ever. Stupid PC culture

x1
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [Skyline Chili] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Skyline Chili wrote:
velocomp wrote:
Herbert wrote:
Women are not simply ornaments. Podium girls are really outdated.


Yes it is time to stop forcing women to do this... Oh wait, they aren't forced at all. This is the stupidest thing ever. Stupid PC culture


x1

Which is a twist on the normal '+1' or 'x2' way of agreeing with someone? Sorry if I am explaining your joke but it's hard to spot sarcasm sometimes. But it is just possible that you meant to agree and entirely missed how arithmetic works.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
I agree that the best way would be to have a women's TdF that has the same stage finish city on the same day. Would it even be possible? I don't know, but where there is a will, there is a way. It seems like it "COULD" be possible to have a women's circuit race in the finish city that uses some of the same roads that the men will finish on. Finish the women 2 hrs before the men so that eyeballs can then go to the TV for the final 2 hrs of the men's race. Podium ceremony for all with the men. 10-14 stages, of lengths common for women's racing not that I am advocating shorter women's races, mainly that something is better than nothing, and you can fit in 2+ hrs of women's racing during the first 2 hours of the men's race when not much is generally going on.

I do agree that the most eyeballs go to women's sport when there is a concurrent men's event. May as well go with the flow.

All the talk about beautiful people having the right to work is cool provided there is a job to be done. If there is no job in the TdF to apply the beauty to, they still have a right to that job, its just that the corporation is not offering to fill that position. A beautiful or ugly person can apply till they are blue in the face, but if there is no job opening, well, you can keep applying and want the job, but it's not gonna happen. All kinds of positions get cut by companies even when we want to keep those jobs....been on both sides of the chopping block. No one gets to keep a job because they just want the job. It really depends on the company opening up positions (or not).

Your saying there should be equal this and that and what should be done coming up with suggestions and you don't even realise there is a women's pro tour race finishing on the Champs Elysees hours before the TDF men's race finishes there putting them in the biggest spotlight. You can only shut down the Champs Elysees for one day a year. As for Stade Bianche I think it is better the day before so everyone is already there but complete focus on the women's race. Having the men's race would only detract from their race IMO where they should be in the spotlight for pre race day press conferences, trophy presentations etc.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I am aware of the women's racing during the TdF...3 stages is a bit of a joke though.

Next year only one mountain stage:

https://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/blog/2017/10/19/women-real-losers-after-2018-tour-announcement


By the way, this is my preferred version of podium women, but it appears this will only happen on 1 day






Tour of California a bit better at 3 days, but why not all days?
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [velocomp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
velocomp wrote:
Herbert wrote:
Women are not simply ornaments. Podium girls are really outdated.


Yes it is time to stop forcing women to do this... Oh wait, they aren't forced at all. This is the stupidest thing ever. Stupid PC culture

Your PC culture is forcing the race director spend money on podium girls even though almost all other sports have moved on. Everyone is PC. We just have different politics.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France to Drop Podium Girls [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
First of all I don't believe any of these ladies make their living from being a podium girl. It is just a gig if you are pursuing or actually working in a modeling career. It was probably a pretty decent exposure event, so for that it would be a loss to them. Not sure what they made in $$, but assuming it cost the TDF something to schlep them around, dress, house, feed, promote, and probably pay them. So there may have been pressure financially, just bringing that up as no one else has.

And to me that is exactly what they were, professional models being hired to spruce up an otherwise pretty boring event, the awards ceremony. While they are at it, get rid of the politicians and other notary folks(although I can't name one of them except the Badger) and just let the athletes get the hell out of there and to their mobile hospitals.

Is it some of your opinions that we should get rid of all modeling? And if not, how is this job any different? And if so, really??
Quote Reply

Prev Next