Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ThisIsIt wrote:
The biggest questions for me out of this Tour is what could Van Aert accomplish?

Seems like green jersey could have easily been his. Could he lose enough weight to win a grand tour (probably would need a lot more flat TT miles, and then hold on in the mountains)?


The green jersey next year is his if his team gives him a free hand to take it.

As for yellow, he'd have to go the Thomas/Wiggins route - forsake any attempts at classics, cyclocross, green jersey, world championships, most of the monuments, etc to slim down and hope that the stars align. Forget Gilbert, van Aert is the rider who has the realistic shot at all 5 monuments. He already has San Remo, which is the one which comes down to luck. Lombardia would be the stretch for him, but given how he was riding in the mountains this year....

Lets not forget that when Tomas won, it was against rivals who had also done the Giro. Roglic hadn't come into his own yet, and the rest of the field was so so. Wiggins won against yet another weak field in a race with 3x as many TT kms as we typically have now.
Last edited by: timbasile: Sep 18, 20 6:35
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [H2Owings] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
H2Owings wrote:
Not sure if it’s been said, but i feel like they have Sagan proofed this years race and he still had a chance. He missed out early with what seems like some bad positioning in the sprints, came back, just to have ~45 point questionably taken away from him. It seemed like in the past there were stages with 3-4 sprint points as well as hills that only Sagan could get over. This year there is only like 1 sprint point per day and they made the hills just so that even Sagan couldn’t keep up over them. An easier course for the pure sprinter to get points/harder for a more all around cyclist to get points , and losing those points did him in.

Nowadays for a sprinter who cannot climb to win the green jersey requires both luck and fully maximizing all points on days with no climbing, and Bennett has succeeded at both. With the likes of Van Aert and Sagan in the world, I would not count on this happening frequently.

Sagan dropped a chain and only scored 4 points on stage 7 when it otherwise likely would have been 50, 40, or 30. That's a 26 - 46 point swing. Sagan lost another 53 points on the relegation stage, when also considering Bennett gained 10 by moving up a place. All told that is 79-99 point swing that Bennett simply lucked into, and without that luck he does not have the green jersey.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [kny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kny wrote:
Sagan dropped a chain and only scored 4 points on stage 7 when it otherwise likely would have been 50, 40, or 30. That's a 26 - 46 point swing. Sagan lost another 53 points on the relegation stage, when also considering Bennett gained 10 by moving up a place. All told that is 79-99 point swing that Bennett simply lucked into, and without that luck he does not have the green jersey.

In fairness, there's another 50/40/30 available for Bennett in Paris. Given Sagan's form, I'm not sure he'd pick up as many in Paris. But agreed, there's a been a bit of luck here for Bennett.

The other bit of luck is that Wout is on team duties. Given how easily he's able to replicate "peak Sagan" (see the 2016 tour when he was everywhere), I think we're all agreed that the impact would have come out differently.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Agreed. Whoever wins the green will be mighty glad Wout is such a selfless teammate.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [kny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kny wrote:


Nowadays for a sprinter who cannot climb to win the green jersey requires both luck and fully maximizing all points on days with no climbing, and Bennett has succeeded at both. With the likes of Van Aert and Sagan in the world, I would not count on this happening frequently.

Sagan dropped a chain and only scored 4 points on stage 7 when it otherwise likely would have been 50, 40, or 30. That's a 26 - 46 point swing. Sagan lost another 53 points on the relegation stage, when also considering Bennett gained 10 by moving up a place. All told that is 79-99 point swing that Bennett simply lucked into, and without that luck he does not have the green jersey.


Bennett got his pro contract for his ability to win in lumpy stages. Tour of Britain 2013 - 1st and 2nd in some very tricky stages with hard finishes. Made it into small groups with the likes of Wiggins, Yates etc. Then he also gets 2nd to peak Cav on the final stage. Not a climber, but it took a cat 2 climb for Bora to distance him by 20s and drop him on stage 14. Apart from flat out speed and ability to win in lumpy stages, Bennett has won several races by jumping early with 500m or so to go and holding the gap. Another weapon in his arsenal that few other sprinters have.

Sagan hasn't finished in front of Bennett in a single contested sprint in this Tour - but luck has Bennett in the Green.

Heck of a lot of fanciful speculation on the luck part. Sagan can consider himself lucky that Bennett didn't contest the intermediate sprint for the first few stages. That's a 20 point turnover he was gifted.

More luck, the two stages where Bennett had no leadout man for the last 2k he had to freelance and finished 2nd in both. Not sure what happened but a leadout to take the wind and drop him off with 200m to go could easily have made the difference between 2nd and first. More bad luck and another 20 points missed.

It's not a conspiracy. Give Bennett his due - he hasn't lucked into anything. His biggest mistake is underconfidence. Tends to second-guess himself too much.

I'm disappointed that Sam just marked Peter today. Looked like he easily had the beating of him. A couple of moves and I think he would have easily gapped Peter and had a shot at the win or 2nd place. Not sure what CCC were up to either. GVA and MT underachieved the two stages they had a chance in.
Last edited by: carlosflanders: Sep 18, 20 10:09
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [carlosflanders] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
carlosflanders wrote:
kny wrote:


Nowadays for a sprinter who cannot climb to win the green jersey requires both luck and fully maximizing all points on days with no climbing, and Bennett has succeeded at both. With the likes of Van Aert and Sagan in the world, I would not count on this happening frequently.

Sagan dropped a chain and only scored 4 points on stage 7 when it otherwise likely would have been 50, 40, or 30. That's a 26 - 46 point swing. Sagan lost another 53 points on the relegation stage, when also considering Bennett gained 10 by moving up a place. All told that is 79-99 point swing that Bennett simply lucked into, and without that luck he does not have the green jersey.


Bennett got his pro contract for his ability to win in lumpy stages. Tour of Britain 2013 - 1st and 2nd in some very tricky stages with hard finishes. Made it into small groups with the likes of Wiggins, Yates etc. Then he also gets 2nd to peak Cav on the final stage. Not a climber, but it took a cat 2 climb for Bora to distance him by 20s and drop him on stage 14. Apart from flat out speed and ability to win in lumpy stages, Bennett has won several races by jumping early with 500m or so to go and holding the gap. Another weapon in his arsenal that few other sprinters have.

Sagan hasn't finished in front of Bennett in a single contested sprint in this Tour - but luck has Bennett in the Green.

Heck of a lot of fanciful speculation on the luck part. Sagan can consider himself lucky that Bennett didn't contest the intermediate sprint for the first few stages. That's a 20 point turnover he was gifted.

More luck, the two stages where Bennett had no leadout man for the last 2k he had to freelance and finished 2nd in both. Not sure what happened but a leadout to take the wind and drop him off with 200m to go could easily have made the difference between 2nd and first. More bad luck and another 20 points missed.

It's not a conspiracy. Give Bennett his due - he hasn't lucked into anything. His biggest mistake is underconfidence. Tends to second-guess himself too much.

I'm disappointed that Sam just marked Peter today. Looked like he easily had the beating of him. A couple of moves and I think he would have easily gapped Peter and had a shot at the win or 2nd place. Not sure what CCC were up to either. GVA and MT underachieved the two stages they had a chance in.

Very much this. Sagan just flat out got beat this year (barring something miraculous happening Sunday). I also don't fault Sam from just marking Peter. That's all he had to do to keep the Green. Tactically it's too be a risk that he would fall victim to a counter-attack that Sagan snuck into.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [carlosflanders] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
All I am saying is that there is a 77-99 point swing that Bennett is simply lucky went his way. He is lucky that Sagan had a mechanical when sprinting for the stage win while he was back in the Grupetto. He is lucky that Sagan was relegated and lost all points and he gained 10 points. Bennett had zero control over either of those circumstances and if they had not occurred he would not be in green now. That is indisputable and thus he is lucky. Luck is part of the game, though, as is not getting relegated and not dropping a chain (or flatting in the Mtn Bike Olympics, etc....)

I am also saying that the days are in the past of the sprinter who is brought to the tour to contend for sprint stage victories also contending for the green jersey. The likes of Wout and Sagan who can compete for the win and the points on the mid mountain days as well as score lots of points on the flat days will always win. The days of Cavendish, McEwen, Zabel winning green jerseys are behind us.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [kny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sagan has plenty of control over his luck. Dropping a chain is tough, admittedly.

Notice that Bennett has sprinted up the middle in every sprint finish. This minimizes the risk of getting boxed in, and is safer, but also means that you can get passed on either side, and that's happened.

Sagan chose to sprint up the barriers rather than the middle for his relegation stage. Much riskier and some contact is inevitable. I wouldn't have relegated him but it's the risk you take.

You make your own luck. I find all the speculation a bit excessive.

I have no doubt that Wout would run away with green if he wanted to.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [carlosflanders] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
carlosflanders wrote:
Sagan has plenty of control over his luck. Dropping a chain is tough, admittedly.

Notice that Bennett has sprinted up the middle in every sprint finish. This minimizes the risk of getting boxed in, and is safer, but also means that you can get passed on either side, and that's happened.

Sagan chose to sprint up the barriers rather than the middle for his relegation stage. Much riskier and some contact is inevitable. I wouldn't have relegated him but it's the risk you take.

You make your own luck. I find all the speculation a bit excessive.

I have no doubt that Wout would run away with green if he wanted to.

I completely agree that Sagan has made his bad luck and frankly Sam Bennet has beaten Sagan every time straight up on the intermediate sprints. Sagan cannot beat Bennet at those and the race is the race and the location of those are where they are.

Has Sagan even won an intermediate sprint this year? I don't recall that he has, but maybe I missed one. If you can't win a stage and you can win an intermediate, then you really don't deserve the green....and I have been cheering for this guy for 19 days. And today he did nothing to react to the final attack that lost everyone the stage. The old Sagan would have easily shut it down. I think he just does not have the form.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think both Ewan's and Sagan's legs are destroyed at the moment. Can they recover in time for stage 21? I don't know but I think both have gone that little bit too deep in week 3.

Last stage will be fun, I can see Sunweb lining up 4 men to lead out Bol while sending SKA, Hirschi and Roche in solo attacks over the last 5 km. What a great tour they've had. Meanwhile Wout will wind it up with 300 M to go while being matched by the DQS train and all the other sprinters undecided who to mark. Maybe an opportunist like Coquard or Colbrelli takes it.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [H2Owings] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This race was actually anti-sprinter with the few sprint stages and gnarly mountains. Sagan was the favorite going in, however he came in undertrained (likely on purpose with the Giro) and had some bad luck which then changed the game moving forward. The relegation was huge of course, but so was the dropped chain. I assume he would have won that sprint, but even if not he was going to get top 3 while Bennet was going to get nothing. Those two incidents along with Trentin deciding to chase intermediate points turned it into a competition Bennet could win and credit to Bennet for seizing the opportunity.

Speaking of Trentin, CCC has been a mess and continued it today. GVA and Trentin should have bossed that last group. Sagan was isolated with at least the two DQS riders marking him. I am sure Trentin wanted to knock GVA off his bike when he didn't cover the Sunweb move. GVA is not known for working for others, but that was a great chance to work together and come away with a win on that stage for one of them. Two guys, both leaving at the end of the season and riding for themselves - CCC just has had no real direction or goal at this Tour. Even Trentin randomly chasing intermediate points was aimless.

"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [carlosflanders] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think WvA could actually take the Champs by attacking on the final left turn before the Tunnel under the Louvres, recovering slightly on the downhill at speed and attacking again on the uphill out of the Tunnel turn left, and TTing "left-right" by the Place de La Concorde to the finish line. Everyone will pay poker wondering who will chase him down and he has the legs to out drill the sprinter teams.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [flynnzu] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
fwiw, Bennett would easily have made up another 20-30 points today, if he had to. DQS would have made it a sprint finish and Sagan didn't have the legs. Sagan can consider himself lucky to only give up 3. Good luck for him.

CCC - utter mess.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
WVA is a beast and a likely favorite for Green jersey's in the future, but I don't think this season is a good indicator for the future. Everyone's level is so different due to COVID and whether or not they were out riding/training normally or stuck in their apartment staring at their trainer. Add to that the fact that WVA will of course be more of a marked man as he progresses and the challenge gets tougher.

Again, not disagreeing that WVA is likely to continue to be an absolute force, I just think there are a number of guys who are still not at their normal best which is perhaps inflating his domination. If next year is a more normal season and he continues to perform at this level, then everyone else better get used to the lower steps on the podium.

"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
WannaB wrote:
I guess that depends what you are looking for.

Enjoy watching Jumbo play the Ineos game with much more style and personality. Have no problem appreciating that all next week. Pogacar is insane, and doing a lot of it following other wheels. If he can hang to le planche de belle filles, the rematch of Slovenian Nationals where he bested Roglic will be spectacular.

Porte and Uran fighting to get onto the podium. Totally rooting for that.

Its funny, because I was in the "anyone but Ineos" camp before this race, and found myself feeling sorry for Bernal. But maybe I am in the camp of "anyone but a super team". I just hate watching trains going at such a high pace that there are no attacks. Blame it on Lance I guess !!!!

Merry Xmas dev
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
I think WvA could actually take the Champs by attacking on the final left turn before the Tunnel under the Louvres, recovering slightly on the downhill at speed and attacking again on the uphill out of the Tunnel turn left, and TTing "left-right" by the Place de La Concorde to the finish line. Everyone will pay poker wondering who will chase him down and he has the legs to out drill the sprinter teams.

Objectively, yes this could work. But since it's obvious WvA buried himself in today's stage, does he have enough gas to pull this off?
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Most obvious blood doping stage win since Floyd Landis. Kudos to Slovenia for staying ahead of the testing protocol! Impressive!
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
NAB777 wrote:
I might be proven to be a clown, but I reckon Tom Dumoulin is a big chance.


I think Roglic shows up for Dumoulin domestique duty. Remember in 2018, Roglic attacked on Aubisque (up and down), burnt his legs for a 19 second gain (really fun stage to watch) but the next day he had nothing left for the ITT. Dumoulin won that TT, Froome was just one second behind to take back third on the podium. Thomas took no risks and sealed his yellow.

If Roglic is good to go, does he know when and how many matches to burn. Will be interesting to see what happens on the Planche de Belle Filles Time Trial (this sounds like it should be like Welsley College during the Boston marathon, but I have only seen fat drunken fans on this climb, not beautiful women haha). 500m climb in 6 km, so if there was a TT to hhelp Pinot and Bardet limit losses this is a good one aside from a Ventoux or Alpe d'Huez TT. I think last time the TdF used this route in a road stage it was won by Fabio Aru who weighs nothing.




OK I posted this on Aug 26th...I wish I was wrong, it was heartbreaking watching Primoz lose it today, but it feels like Jumbo could have at least bet on both Roglic and Dumoulin rather than burn Tom on domestique duty. They could have played both cards like Ineos did with Froome+Thomas, and Thomas+Bernal last year.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [carlosflanders] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
carlosflanders wrote:
I think both Ewan's and Sagan's legs are destroyed at the moment. Can they recover in time for stage 21? I don't know but I think both have gone that little bit too deep in week 3.

Last stage will be fun, I can see Sunweb lining up 4 men to lead out Bol while sending SKA, Hirschi and Roche in solo attacks over the last 5 km. What a great tour they've had. Meanwhile Wout will wind it up with 300 M to go while being matched by the DQS train and all the other sprinters undecided who to mark. Maybe an opportunist like Coquard or Colbrelli takes it.

I think just the opposite. It seems to me that Ewan has just been saving all his matches only for the sprint finishes that suit him. If you looked at the start times for the TT today, Lotto had 4 out of the first 5 starters. So Lotto probably has the Lantern Rouge title sowed up bigly for both individual and the team title. I am guessing any day that wasn't to Ewan's liking was just another excuse to hop on the bus and cruise to the finish using as little juice as possible. Tomorrow is the unofficial sprinter world championships so I expect Ewan to be in way better shape than Bennett. That poor guy has been working hard chasing the green and he looked like death warmed over two days ago trying to hang with Sagan.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
grumpier.mike wrote:
carlosflanders wrote:
I think both Ewan's and Sagan's legs are destroyed at the moment. Can they recover in time for stage 21? I don't know but I think both have gone that little bit too deep in week 3.

Last stage will be fun, I can see Sunweb lining up 4 men to lead out Bol while sending SKA, Hirschi and Roche in solo attacks over the last 5 km. What a great tour they've had. Meanwhile Wout will wind it up with 300 M to go while being matched by the DQS train and all the other sprinters undecided who to mark. Maybe an opportunist like Coquard or Colbrelli takes it.


I think just the opposite. It seems to me that Ewan has just been saving all his matches only for the sprint finishes that suit him. If you looked at the start times for the TT today, Lotto had 4 out of the first 5 starters. So Lotto probably has the Lantern Rouge title sowed up bigly for both individual and the team title. I am guessing any day that wasn't to Ewan's liking was just another excuse to hop on the bus and cruise to the finish using as little juice as possible. Tomorrow is the unofficial sprinter world championships so I expect Ewan to be in way better shape than Bennett. That poor guy has been working hard chasing the green and he looked like death warmed over two days ago trying to hang with Sagan.

I am not sure what Wout Van Aert can do for the unofficial sprinter world championships tomorrow after his 4th place today, but earlier I was saying he should attack the sprinter teams like a maniac before the tunnel under the Louvres, recoover on the downhill, hit it hard coming out of the tunnel and shoot out turn left and right by the Place de La Concorde and hang on ahead of the sprinter teams (in this case Lotto Soudal who have been resting every chance they can get). Both Sagan and Bennet look overcooked and Matteo Trentin is probably pretty fried too. Ewan has been totally tapering all week from the looks of things and you probably picked the right winner there. I'd like to see what Van Aert can do, but after today, not sure what he will have left.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Didn't mention it the other day, but Porte managing to make it back to the group after the flat on the gravel climb was huge for him. Kept his hopes alive for a podium, even though unlikely, and he managed to pull it off yesterday. Good result for him after many tough years.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [bgoldstein] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
UAE on disc brakes, but it looks like the only yellow bike available came with rim brakes!
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [bgoldstein] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bgoldstein wrote:
UAE on disc brakes, but it looks like the only yellow bike available came with rim brakes!

UAE's been on a mix of rim/disc the whole tour.
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
bgoldstein wrote:
UAE on disc brakes, but it looks like the only yellow bike available came with rim brakes!

UAE's been on a mix of rim/disc the whole tour.
What's the thought? Faster to change a flat for rim? Or purely rider preference?
Quote Reply
Re: Tour de France Race Banter: It's Wide Open [bgoldstein] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bgoldstein wrote:
What's the thought? Faster to change a flat for rim? Or purely rider preference?

I don't know. Pogacar has been on both, but appears to use rim on climbing days, so might be weight. Or, as you say, wheel change speed.
Quote Reply

Prev Next