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Toughman NY is a great race
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Kudos to Rich Izzo and the army of volunteers that put on a tremendous race today. Every NYC area triathlete should be doing this race. Nice calm fresh water swim. Challenging, but manageable rolling bike course. Run course is painful, but that’s what’s advertised. Solid post race chow and free beer. We need to support races like this.
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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I could not agree more!
6.2.5
This was my first time doing this race since it move from Croton to Harriman State Park. This race has the same look and feel as it did when it first was borh 10+ years ago. And DAMN that is a challenging course!
The atmosphere around tjos race is unexplainable. It is so fantastic to see that an independant race can survie in a world of cookie cuter traveling road shows. And what beats a HOT BBQ at the finish line with beer? I would like to see IM do that.
Aside from every athlete from NYC should be doing this race, (they have relyas), anyone training for Kona or IM AZ or Cozumel should definitly use this race as a tune-up; it will make you work!
Kudos to Rich; lets keep growing this race!
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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There was a post in Pathetics about how Triathletes talk about supporting Indies and also how this race's registration numbers have just plummeted. Toughman responded to my post on the thread basically saying they're getting squeezed out by local Ironman 70.3s around the same time. But LP 70.3 and AC 70.3 have been going for a long time. Given how much people laud this race, I don't get it. It's also within driving distance for all of the Northeast Tri Scene. Whereas out here in the West, "Local" may mean FAR AF for you east coast folks.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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I did this race 4 years ago and loved it. But it is usually the same weekend or the week after 70.3 Worlds which I attended 3 out of 4 years. And the only year I didn't (last year), I wanted to race Lake Placid 70.3 just for something different. One of the main draws of our sport, for me, at least, is racing new and unique courses. I would love to support Toughman but the race is a bit too late in the year IMO.


TheStroBro wrote:
There was a post in Pathetics about how Triathletes talk about supporting Indies and also how this race's registration numbers have just plummeted. Toughman responded to my post on the thread basically saying they're getting squeezed out by local Ironman 70.3s around the same time. But LP 70.3 and AC 70.3 have been going for a long time. Given how much people laud this race, I don't get it. It's also within driving distance for all of the Northeast Tri Scene. Whereas out here in the West, "Local" may mean FAR AF for you east coast folks.

Strava
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Harriman, the hidden jewel of Rockland county and my local playground.

Combining that venue with a first rate organization like Toughman should be a recipe for success.

Who knows though, seems many want more fanfare and easier courses.

Case in point, I was in Atlantic City this weekend and learned that IM now runs the AC 70.3. I imagine that pancake flat race with the brand was way more popular than Toughman.

In any event, I wish Rich well and give kudos to all that raced in Harriman this weekend (while I was hiking)
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [stillrollin] [ In reply to ]
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stillrollin wrote:
Harriman, the hidden jewel of Rockland county and my local playground.

Combining that venue with a first rate organization like Toughman should be a recipe for success.

Who knows though, seems many want more fanfare and easier courses.

Case in point, I was in Atlantic City this weekend and learned that IM now runs the AC 70.3. I imagine that pancake flat race with the brand was way more popular than Toughman.

In any event, I wish Rich well and give kudos to all that raced in Harriman this weekend (while I was hiking)

THIS.

Toughman is a fantastic organization, and Rich Izzo & crew do an amazing job.

Harriman was nearly custom made for bike racing and multisport, a good mix of challenging and fair.

I did the original venue 3 of the first 4 years it was held, and enjoyed the races a great deal.
(I'm just old and semi-crippled now, so I end my season with SOS and then go into mtb, cx, & beer season, so I don't really race HIM's anymore)

Here's hoping the lemmings finally get tired of overpaying for the M.DOT hype, and support excellent local races that are a helluva lot better and more fun.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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I supported a local Triathlon 9 days ago. The Mighty Moraine Man 70.3. The course featured almost the exact terrain as Toughman, NY. But 9 days ago I didn't have an MDOT race in my backyard.

Pros of Toughman, NY: $250 registration fee is reasonable these days. Its a challenging course. Good competition shows up in the top 10 or so athletes.

Pros of Ironman (EDITED TITLE): All of the TANGIBLES that come with racing MDOT. Most people want to say they did an Ironman and they even get the hat with an MDOT on it to show that they did, even if its just 70.3. You can buy all of the gear you want and even have it customized. You are almost guaranteed a large field of 1,200+ athletes from around the world. The competition level allows you to compare/compete to/against others from bottom to top of the race. You can qualify for World Championship races and have an amazing race-cation. In some cases you can qualify for your pro card by getting top 3 age group when the race has a pro field. Ironman races are much better recognized and advertised. Timing is generally live tracked via app very well and your family/friends can easily find you. You can get All World Athlete status through a points system (yes I know you can buy it). Your triathlon club can get priority racking and other benefits and awards at these events. The list goes on.

Now, I could have registered for and raced Toughman, NY. But I chose to do Ironman 70.3 Atlantic City instead. Yes, it is about 90 mins closer for me to go to AC...but it also cost me about $125 more to sign up. Some of the reasons above apply.

I think the local 70.3 Tri's would do well to make sure their events are not scheduled within a 2 week time frame of other 70.3 races and just fill a niche. I, for one, raced the local triathlon to see what my performance would be like doing 70.3 races one week apart. The answer is...my performance at the second 70.3 was not ideal. I guess my point here is that most people don't look at the local 70.3 as their A race and it would be beneficial for local race directors to take that into consideration if they want to attack a larger crowd of more competitive triathletes. I am going to be email my local race director and seeing if they can put on the 70.3 again in early-mid May as in the Northeast it would be a great primer for Eagleman 70.3 and the other races Ironman puts on in end of May/June/July.
Last edited by: LifeTri: Sep 16, 19 11:09
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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We all drank the Kool-Aid. Some of us detoxed. It takes time. You're still young.

LifeTri wrote:
I supported a local Triathlon 9 days ago. The Mighty Moraine Man 70.3. The course featured almost the exact terrain as Toughman, NY. But 9 days ago I didn't have an MDOT race in my backyard.

Pros of Toughman, NY: $250 registration fee is reasonable these days. Its a challenging course. Good competition shows up in the top 10 or so athletes.

Cons of Toughman, NY: All of the TANGIBLES that come with racing MDOT. Most people want to say they did an Ironman and they even get the hat with an MDOT on it to show that they did, even if its just 70.3. You can buy all of the gear you want and even have it customized. You are almost guaranteed a large field of 1,200+ athletes from around the world. The competition level allows you to compare/compete to/against others from bottom to top of the race. You can qualify for World Championship races and have an amazing race-cation. In some cases you can qualify for your pro card by getting top 3 age group when the race has a pro field. Ironman races are much better recognized and advertised. Timing is generally live tracked via app very well and your family/friends can easily find you. You can get All World Athlete status through a points system (yes I know you can buy it). Your triathlon club can get priority racking and other benefits and awards at these events. The list goes on.

Now, I could have registered for and raced Toughman, NY. But I chose to do Ironman 70.3 Atlantic City instead. Yes, it is about 90 mins closer for me to go to AC...but it also cost me about $125 more to sign up. Some of the reasons above apply.

I think the local 70.3 Tri's would do well to make sure their events are not scheduled within a 2 week time frame of other 70.3 races and just fill a niche. I, for one, raced the local triathlon to see what my performance would be like doing 70.3 races one week apart. The answer is...my performance at the second 70.3 was not ideal. I guess my point here is that most people don't look at the local 70.3 as their A race and it would be beneficial for local race directors to take that into consideration if they want to attack a larger crowd of more competitive triathletes. I am going to be email my local race director and seeing if they can put on the 70.3 again in early-mid May as in the Northeast it would be a great primer for Eagleman 70.3 and the other races Ironman puts on in end of May/June/July.
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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Looking at the Toughman NY slot in the Calendar and also within the Toughman Promotion Calendar I do have to wonder why they would hold their Series Championship within a month's time frame of 70.3 WC. That's probably why NYC Tri was always the last week of June/1st Week of July. I just don't think it fits in the Calendar as a Championship race. I'm not saying they can't compet e, everything I've heard about it is awesome.

Yet, as Monty said the last time Dan polled about Independent races. Everyone is full of it.

In Arizona we have two Indy 70.3s. Mountain Man which has been going for over 40 years and Deuces Wild, long course for Deuces Wild is under 10 years old. Deuces wild is also a festival where you can camp at. Night xTerra, a 5k, a sprint, and Oly etc. Deuces Wild is at the beginning of June. None of our 70.3 races here truly conflict with the other big Arizona Calendar pieces which are LifeTime Tempe, IMAZ 70.3, and IMAZ. Everything seems to holistically fit. Did some google fu, they had a race at Havasu in March in 2017, when I think about it. That could totally work for San Diego, Arizona, or Nevada people. But none since then.

I really don't know what the issue overall is, as we've seen registrations plummet for Musselman etc. Perhaps Dan has some Data that he's working on for January.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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I was there yesterday and it is a very challenging half. Well organized, lake is clean, course was beautiful. And I am sore today!
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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I should have mentioned this before instead of creating another response.

My issue with racing "local" is the inconvenience of a 70.3...and therefore...my willingness to pay double the registration fee to make sure its top notch.

What do I mean by inconvenience? If I want to have a good race I need to:

  • Book a hotel room/house for two nights in advance and probably for a third night if I don't want to hate traveling back home as much. But at a minimum I will travel out a day in advance...even if the race is only 90 mins away
  • Have good options for training the days before the race
  • Food options available that do not require me to do any food prep or clean up
  • Space for all of my gear and a staging area to lay everything out which the hotel room/house is great for

At the end of the day I spend a lot of money to show up and RACE a 70.3. Like, I am not great at this sport...but I want to get as good as possible and race as well as possible. Ironman makes a lot of things easy for the athlete and because of that they are worth the extra fee for me. I know most triathletes do not share my attitude for the sport (though I think many on Slowtwitch do), but I want to race against the best possible competition to stoke the flames of determination for my workouts and subsequent races. For example, I got run down by a woman yesterday on the half marathon. I was like...holy hell...I don't get run down by women, ever. Turns out she is currently qualified for the olympic trials in Marathon. That was a seriously cool experience to have.


Local races can be super fun to do. In fact, they may be the most FUN in the strictest sense for most people. But for me, it's about the competition. Hence, the inconvenience I am willing to go through to make sure I have the best race day I can.


PS: Im not really all that serious! I did have 4 beers the night before the race on Sunday and 2 beers before the race the weekend before.
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:

Here's hoping the lemmings finally get tired of overpaying for the M.DOT hype, and support excellent local races that are a helluva lot better and more fun.

Oh please, I'm tired of hearing this argument. Some of us want to compete against the best in the world, and those guys/gals are doing Ironman branded races. While I think Toughman (and other local races) are great fun and well run, if I want to challenge myself against the deepest fields in the WORLD in my AG, I have to race MDOT races. Sure, Triathlon is a hobby, but I would say most of us do it for some kind of competitive outlet, and a "fun race that is well run" is not the only criteria that goes into race selection.

Strava
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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My working hypothesis is that there is a network effect to WTC races - the more people that register/race, the more others want to join as well. If your competition, or friends/family are at 70.3 WC or 70.3 Lake Placid, etc then there is a strong chance you are going to join those races as well, regardless of how cool Toughman is. There isn't as much prestige in finishing or placing high at something that no one has heard of. And I'm not bashing Toughman specifically - I did it a few years ago and it was an incredible course and managed well. It's just less well known.


TheStroBro wrote:
Looking at the Toughman NY slot in the Calendar and also within the Toughman Promotion Calendar I do have to wonder why they would hold their Series Championship within a month's time frame of 70.3 WC. That's probably why NYC Tri was always the last week of June/1st Week of July. I just don't think it fits in the Calendar as a Championship race. I'm not saying they can't compet e, everything I've heard about it is awesome.

Yet, as Monty said the last time Dan polled about Independent races. Everyone is full of it.

In Arizona we have two Indy 70.3s. Mountain Man which has been going for over 40 years and Deuces Wild, long course for Deuces Wild is under 10 years old. Deuces wild is also a festival where you can camp at. Night xTerra, a 5k, a sprint, and Oly etc. Deuces Wild is at the beginning of June. None of our 70.3 races here truly conflict with the other big Arizona Calendar pieces which are LifeTime Tempe, IMAZ 70.3, and IMAZ. Everything seems to holistically fit. Did some google fu, they had a race at Havasu in March in 2017, when I think about it. That could totally work for San Diego, Arizona, or Nevada people. But none since then.

I really don't know what the issue overall is, as we've seen registrations plummet for Musselman etc. Perhaps Dan has some Data that he's working on for January.

Strava
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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I do a lot of IM races and like to compete for WC slots and measure myself against the deeper fields. Those are fair points.

There are some major pain points with IM races, though:

Higher cost
Day before registration/ bike racking
Propensity to cancel swims
Excessive people in the water (two lap swims) or on road (drafting)
Crap swag
Crap food
Crap awards
Douchebag filled scene

Toughman does a good job of addressing those concerns in a location that is very convenient for millions of NYC area triathletes.
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Rich and his crew do an awesome job. They also have a great kids race the day before.

I did a few early races before I quit 70.3. Loved every-one. Even the ones when I ended up in the hospital and Rich stopped by to make sure I was "ok". (dehydration) My kids grew up doing his kids races and loved them as well.

Reading through the comments: The "competition" is not their unless you are doing Mdot. cracks me up. The winner went 4:07. That seems pretty fast to me. Wonder if that guy is a wanna-be pro to think the competition is not there or possibly its A. Brownlee making the comment?

Really sad MDOT put Lake Placid and Atlantic City so close to this so people flock to those and not this race.
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
Rich and his crew do an awesome job. They also have a great kids race the day before.

I did a few early races before I quit 70.3. Loved every-one. Even the ones when I ended up in the hospital and Rich stopped by to make sure I was "ok". (dehydration) My kids grew up doing his kids races and loved them as well.

Reading through the comments: The "competition" is not their unless you are doing Mdot. cracks me up. The winner went 4:07. That seems pretty fast to me. Wonder if that guy is a wanna-be pro to think the competition is not there or possibly its A. Brownlee making the comment?

Really sad MDOT put Lake Placid and Atlantic City so close to this so people flock to those and not this race.

Well, that’s part of their business plan. Kill off the competition.

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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How does Toughman eliminate "douchebags"?
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Toughman is a great race. I did it yesterday and last year. This race has been suffering tremendously since AC became IM branded a few years ago.
Aside from the IM draw, Toughman is a brutal course. 3500’ on the bike and close to 1000’ on the run. The alternative is to go to AC and shoot for a PR. Hey, my 70.3 PR came 2 years ago at AC.
Toughman is well run with an amazing RD. (Delmo at AC is pretty awesome in his own right).
So the masses will continue to flock to AC.
I don’t know how Toughman is surviving with the low turnout the last few years.
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [coralsnake] [ In reply to ]
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Every race report I read from the Atlantic City 70.3 made it sound like the race from hell to me. I specifically chose this one over it. And, Atlantic City? Yuk.
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [TricentralPA] [ In reply to ]
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TricentralPA wrote:
Every race report I read from the Atlantic City 70.3 made it sound like the race from hell to me. I specifically chose this one over it. And, Atlantic City? Yuk.
But despite the overcrowded 2.5 loop bike, rumble strips, and scattered debris, AC gets PRs and has M-Dot swag so people will continue to flock there over a challenging Toughman course.
Although they aren’t selling out like they used to.
Lots of first timers do AC too since it’s not as intimidating a course as Toughman.
One person (a 70.3 first-timer herself) told me the girl next to her in transition on race morning was asking where her bike is. She said she left it by checkin on Saturday and thought they would rack it for her. 🤦🏻‍♂️
Last edited by: coralsnake: Sep 17, 19 5:46
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [coralsnake] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah...the M dot races seem to get a segment of people who are pretty "green" in the experience of triathlon.
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Hi everyone. I want to thank everyone who came out and raced last weekend. It was great weekend of racing from hosting the USAT NE Regional Championship at our TOUGHKids NY Championship to the TOUGHMAN half iron 2019 Championship.
We appreciate all your positive and constructive feedback as it helps us to make a better race every year. Since I and all of our race staff are retired racers we look at the events from that point of view and try hard to address every detail that makes for a great race experience.
This year we had over 350 kids race- please see the video at our TOUGHKids FB page- it will blow you away. And for TOUGHMAN we had a BLAST hosting 60 Chilean athletes from our 5 TOUGHMAN Chile races who flew 8000 miles to race (including 12 kids). and 12 athletes from TOUGHMAN Puerto Rico (coming up on Oct 13th- shameless plug).
The weather was amazing, the venue hard but fair and we had over 700 volunteers on the race course. Our staff is top notch and always on top of things which makes me look good.
I was back in my office early Monday morning doing my "real job" as a sports doctor but we are turning things around quickly and will be open for 2020 on Thurs. And we have 4 more TOUGHMAN races before the end of the year all over N and S America.
Last thoughts- it was great to be able to talk with athletes all weekend long and interact with them- makes me feel like I am still part of racing-which is the lifestyle I LOVE.. We do this bc we love it. It is very hard to organize a long course race that is safe, is done with precision, and offers bells and whistles. I started in triathlon in 1988 so I have seen the ups and downs. We started TOUGHMAN in 2008 (on this date). So we have seen them come and go. My perspective is that change is coming to the sport very shortly. When it ceases to be fun on this side of the line we will call it a day. But for now we have a long view of things. IM took 25-30 yrs to make their brand popular and we are very young in the game. We own the brand and building a new brand is not easy. But that is the "challenge" (whoops) and fun of it. Heck in the 80's no one wanted a spot to Kona. Friends of mine who raced there at that time went every yr.
Again for those who raced thank you for coming- it really makes US on this side of the line feel good. For those who raced elsewhere and are looking for a competitive field, the male winner James Capperell did a 4:07 and female winner Rebeccah Wassner did a 4:42. Plus for those elite age groupers we offer a 4.9 K CASH purse to the top 5 overall male/females and over 25k worth of age group awards.
see you next year on Sept 19/20.
Rich

http://www.TOUGHMANTri.com
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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There was a post in Pathetics about how Triathletes talk about supporting Indies


Most people want to be seen as supporting Indies but the reality, is they want the established races because of their higher publicity. People don't want to do relatively anonymous races.
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
Reading through the comments: The "competition" is not their unless you are doing Mdot. cracks me up. The winner went 4:07. That seems pretty fast to me. Wonder if that guy is a wanna-be pro to think the competition is not there or possibly its A. Brownlee making the comment?

Apparently you missed the portion of my comment where I said Mdot has the "deepest" fields. 4:07 is super fast, but it only took a 4:37 to make the top 5 at Toughman NY. And your bolded comment is a great way to discourage people from seeking out a challenge. Such a Boomer mentality - raised a generation of millennials that think everyone should get participation trophies.

B.McMaster wrote:
Really sad MDOT put Lake Placid and Atlantic City so close to this so people flock to those and not this race.

Triathlon is a business, not a charity. If something is not drawing people to your event, change the way you're doing business. I have done Toughman and think it's a great race, but complaining about the success of WTC's tactics and branding doesn't solve the issue. Give constructive feedback to the race organizer to help draw more people to it. Promote it to your friends as a great local race that offers better value than IM.

Strava
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Re: Toughman NY is a great race [TOUGHMAN] [ In reply to ]
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TOUGHMAN wrote:
Hi everyone. I want to thank everyone who came out and raced last weekend. It was great weekend of racing from hosting the USAT NE Regional Championship at our TOUGHKids NY Championship to the TOUGHMAN half iron 2019 Championship.
We appreciate all your positive and constructive feedback as it helps us to make a better race every year. Since I and all of our race staff are retired racers we look at the events from that point of view and try hard to address every detail that makes for a great race experience.
This year we had over 350 kids race- please see the video at our TOUGHKids FB page- it will blow you away. And for TOUGHMAN we had a BLAST hosting 60 Chilean athletes from our 5 TOUGHMAN Chile races who flew 8000 miles to race (including 12 kids). and 12 athletes from TOUGHMAN Puerto Rico (coming up on Oct 13th- shameless plug).
The weather was amazing, the venue hard but fair and we had over 700 volunteers on the race course. Our staff is top notch and always on top of things which makes me look good.
I was back in my office early Monday morning doing my "real job" as a sports doctor but we are turning things around quickly and will be open for 2020 on Thurs. And we have 4 more TOUGHMAN races before the end of the year all over N and S America.
Last thoughts- it was great to be able to talk with athletes all weekend long and interact with them- makes me feel like I am still part of racing-which is the lifestyle I LOVE.. We do this bc we love it. It is very hard to organize a long course race that is safe, is done with precision, and offers bells and whistles. I started in triathlon in 1988 so I have seen the ups and downs. We started TOUGHMAN in 2008 (on this date). So we have seen them come and go. My perspective is that change is coming to the sport very shortly. When it ceases to be fun on this side of the line we will call it a day. But for now we have a long view of things. IM took 25-30 yrs to make their brand popular and we are very young in the game. We own the brand and building a new brand is not easy. But that is the "challenge" (whoops) and fun of it. Heck in the 80's no one wanted a spot to Kona. Friends of mine who raced there at that time went every yr.
Again for those who raced thank you for coming- it really makes US on this side of the line feel good. For those who raced elsewhere and are looking for a competitive field, the male winner James Capperell did a 4:07 and female winner Rebeccah Wassner did a 4:42. Plus for those elite age groupers we offer a 4.9 K CASH purse to the top 5 overall male/females and over 25k worth of age group awards.
see you next year on Sept 19/20.
Rich


Watching Rebeccah Wassner come back and shred that race this year was really cool to follow on social.

Sanuk wrote:

Most people want to be seen as supporting Indies but the reality, is they want the established races because of their higher publicity. People don't want to do relatively anonymous races.

I think this stuff is an interesting discussion overall. I have some contentions with some promotions out there. Mountain Man is a great event in Flagstaff. But my one complaint is that the post-race food vendor packed up before all the racers were done at the Short Course Weekend in July. My girlfriend happened to be on the course and when she arrived there was no hot dogs and beer waiting for her. That is highly depressing and I should probably send them a note about that one.

But if I look at this holistically and where events fit in my season and if I'm going to patronize indies with my time or time and money. It needs to fit within my own periodization. So, say my 'A' Race is IMAZ. Doing Deuces Wild long course in early June works for me, doing Mountain Man long course in August works for me.

I will say, on my bucket list is St Croix Long Course, sucks that Ironman has left USVI, but I love the Virgin Islands and that race would get me back. Knowing where that fits, if I want to do an Ironman it can't be IMAZ. Etc etc.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Last edited by: TheStroBro: Sep 17, 19 8:20
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