A friend of mine swears by it.

I signed up for the samples and gave it a try before a TT...I can't say I really noticed anything, though.

One thing I was thinking about after I read the literature and the "theory" of how it works...assuming cell damage after a hard training bout is one of the body's "signals" for adaptation, then it probably isn't a good idea to use this on an "every day" basis, in that if these buffering effects reduce adaptation from a particular workout, then it might be counter-productive.

However, "race day" use might make more sense, especially if it's a multi-day event (such as a stage race).

It would be interesting to talk to some of the developers about this.

Oh yeah...I also thought that somehow adding an ingredient that allowed it to also act as a sunscreen might be a good idea :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Sort of. The greatest benefit is recovery (study found up to 53% decrease in DOMS). So it does help with day-of performance but the training benefits are considerable.

Sodium bicarbonate is the key ingredient. A formal clinical trial was conducted by Dr. Mark Kern at SDSU. Source Endurance also conducted their own study. You can find both towards bottom of this page: https://www.topicaledge.com/...ance-recovery-lotion.

It's also Informed Sport certified for WADA compliance.

Right...but, the things that cause DOMS are also the signals for your body to adapt to the overload...so, if you "blunt" those signals does it lessen the training effect? That's the question I have...i.e. could every day use during training actually be counter-productive?

Now then, I see the Source Endurance test shows ~20% greater number of intervals before exhaustion...but again, could that be because it took 20% more effort to get past the buffering effect of the lotion? Is the training effect from doing the intervals to exhaustion the same, greater, or lesser with the lotion as compared to without?

The other thing I think would be interesting to know is how long the buffering effect "works" after application. Those tests you pointed to are basically short, intense efforts. Once you apply the lotion, how long is it "good" for? 1 hour? 2? Longer? That's something endurance athletes might want to know.

Anyway...it's an interesting looking product. I'm just not quite sure yet what the best possible application is for it yet...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I read up on a little.

One thing to keep in mind is that most studies involving ingested sodium bicarbonate seem to indicate the mechanism is making the blood less acidic, which would then help buffer acid in the muscles as blood passes through muscle. This stuff purports to work directly on the muscle (you're supposed to spread it on the legs). I admit I was initially a bit skeptical that spreading relative pixie-dust quantities of sodium bicarbonate on your legs results in the stuff efficiently passing through all the barriers and into muscle. Maybe it does. I don't know.

Second, the San Diego State study tried to find a performance benefit, but couldn't. That's why reduced DOMs and lower-heartrate-at-given-load are highlighted as the benefits.

The second "study" by Source Endurance *did* find a performance benefit. But two grains of salt. One, Source Endurance is a coaching service, not an exercise physiology lab. Second though Source Endurance is stated as being "independent," that might not be pure-as-drive-snow independent. Topical Edge is an explicit sponsor of the Elevate-KHS pro continental team. At the time of the study I believe Source Endurance was closely affiliated with the Elevate team (the team name before the merger with KHS). So maybe there's no direct connection, but I suspect there's some close relationships there....

Cold water immersion is the gold standard for recovery techniques
Cetaphil is as effective as cold water immersion
Therefore, Cetaphil is the gold standard ;)

Cetaphil was added to the water immersion as the Placebo "Recovery Oil"

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I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

Been using it for most races (road events) and even some threshold interval days just to try it out. I've had the spectrum using the stuff so I can't say it helps or not. Simply no control. I'm a family man with full career so the days I feel good are probably more luck that I was better rested, hydrated etc...

My last couple races were over the week end. Legs felt absolutely dead in the first crit (masters) but, I ended up winning it. The second crit was the p123 and I felt amazing. Ended up racing and finishing well (for me) but just off the podium. I applied the stuff 30 minutes prior to crit #1 around 10:30am and didn't apply anymore for crit #2 at 3pm fwiw.

Disclaimer: the company is a client. When they approached us last year we were highly skeptical. First time I tried it I noticed a difference. Second time I was crap and didn't Tried a number of other times and generally *felt* better than without. The clinical trial was under way and we saw initial data. Those two were convincing enough to believe in it. I won't attempt the science of why it works but it's being used for everything from team pursuit (US women's national team) to Dk to World Mountain Running champion Joseph Gray and numerous triathletes (none are paid).

I use on hard training days and long days, 2-3x / week, plus events. I don't for easier workouts or recovery spins, though I did experiment with daily during some big big blocks over the winter. It doesn't make you great on a crappy day but I've found I can go a little harder (think the start of Gravel Mob) and be better the next day. In the Journal section of website there are numerous examples of how people are using.

Last year the Rally guys felt daily use during stage races was beneficial. They also tried "loading" with multiple applications (pre- and post-stage), with the theory being the body wants to re-balance ph as quickly as possible. IOW, anecdotally, more can be better for some scenarios. One of the clinical trial tests was a one-hour max TT effort. That was the greatest duration tested so there isn't data on how long it lasts or ideal time frame.

Re: Source, Adam Mills coaches some of the KHS guys and wanted to do his own study. Topical Edge provided product, that's it.

Thanks for the extra info.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Good day everyone. Thanks for reading and asking questions. Topical Edge (TE) has mentioned that their biggest challenge is capturing the attention of customers long enough to explain how it works, and why it works, etc. We completely understand that people are skeptical and indeed we were too, which is why we designed and administered the study. I won't step on a soapbox and preach to anyone about why/ how it works. I don't really think this is a crowd willing to accept my word as "real" and for good reason. So instead I'll do a narrative below with links to the references, etc.

First. Yes, we did a study. Yes, we know the folks at TE which makes sense because you need to get the product for a double blind study somehow right? We did the study and sent TE the white paper. The great thing about science is that you don't have to believe it for it to be true and the scientific method dictates that we tell you how to repeat the study on your own if you choose. It's all right there. Also, yes, Source Endurance (SE) is well integrated with the Eleveate- KHS Pro Cycling Team. That's how they got on board with TE. Don't worry, we didn't stop there and we've introduced over a dozen teams, professional and amateur and across numerous sports and disciplines to TE. To learn more about SE just click here. Of note, all our coaches have at least one post secondary degree in exercise physiology so physiology labs are sort of second nature to us.

The science behind sodium bicarb has always been more or less solid. Here's a google scholar search I did as I'm pulling some history this afternoon. Read the abstracts if you have time, or pull the entire study if you have research access. The general consensus is that it improves performance. How much varies, but if you're ingesting it (do not try at home unless you're really close to a toilet), there are some side effects.

For those questions worried about the training effect, there are a couple thoughts. First, what is your training goal for the day/ week/ month/ year? Does this product help you to accomplish that goal? For most of us, the goal is to faster, which is why we train. If this product helps you, why not use it? Same as coffee. Same as your recovery shake. As an analogy, you can definitely analyze your spending manually, but doesn't a spreadsheet allow you to do more work in the same amount of time so you can dig deeper into numbers as you make your family budget? That may not be the best analogy, sorry.

We're doing a webinar with Topical Edge coming up in mid April where we will dig deeper into all this. If you'd like to register for it (free) just follow this link and keep an eye out for the announcement. We're shoring up our ability to host a webinar that we assume will quickly fill so stay tuned.

Adam Mills, MSEd, RCEP
Source Endurance

If interested, Topical Edge and Source Endurance are joining up for a free webinar April 17th. Q&A at the end so perfect for any of those burning questions-- https://register.gotowebinar.com/.../5183564396116834819

I don't think this answers the training effect question - it may help recovery and allow you to work hard again sooner. But does it do that by reducing effects of training that stimulate the body to increase fitness, strength, etc. over the long term? I.E. you may feel better more quickly after a hard workout but your fitness might not increase as fast over the long term. That's the question. People have asked similar questions about anti-oxidants and NSAIDs.

Also, Topical Edge seems to have deleted your white paper from their site. Is there another place to see it?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

A simple question: how does it get through the skin and into the bloodstream and/or muscles?


It's always been my understanding that anything applied to the skin that actually delivers a substance to the bloodstream (transdermal) is classified as a drug or medicine. I'm happy to be corrected.

Is your product topical or transdermal? If the former, then how does it get to any muscles or the bloodstream?

What is the transdermal carrier? If not yet patent-protected, is it not a banned substance (like glycerol)?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Those training questions are what we'll be looking at in the webinar. I'm sure you're not the only one wondering.

Topical Edge still has our white paper on the website. They probably just took down the big "click here" button off the home page.

Here's the Webinar link.

Great question about how it works and their technology. That's a closely guarded trade secret that Ampersand Pharmaceuticals estimates is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I assume they won't be giving that one away other than saying "it's their proprietary technology."

Most of your questions are on their website so poke around there as there's lots of information.

It is not banned and it is certified by Informed Sport, the bottom right of the page has some of that stuff.

Here's the link to the webinar.

It's a patent pending application that works through dermis and capillaries, which is regulated by the FDA as a topical analgesic. Menthol is listed as active ingredient per FDA regs, which dictate what's listed as active or inactive (and they don't consider bicarb as active).

Informed Sport certified for WADA banned substances.

Thanks -

I read Dr. Kern's white paper. Is it correct that sodium bicarbonate is effective for anaerobic work, but not aerobic work? If the protocol did not include a 30 second maximum effort prior to the 5 minute time trial, would one expect to see any benefit?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

That seems to be a fair statement. The IOC supplement survey paper posted by Dr. Coggan around a week ago chose this literature survey summary: "Enhanced performance (∼2%) of short-term, high-intensity sprints lasting ∼60 s in duration, with a reduced efficacy as the effort duration exceeds 10 min"

Dr. Kern's study was unable to find any TT benefit at 5 minutes or 1 hour.

The Source Endurance non-clinical study and some other studies show benefit in #-of-intervals-to-exhaustion, with the intervals being very short, e.g. 20-30 seconds. E.g. in the Source Endurance study the test population was able to complete 17 30-second intervals vs. 13.6 in the control. (with 20 seconds rest)

So the totality of evidence so far suggests that sodium biocarbonate is near useless for any TT-style effort beyond 10 minutes. So doesn't seem to make sense for triathletes, time-triallists, or runners who go longer than 3-5K. I mean "near useless" in terms of direct performance benefit. I'm not counting DOMS reduction or other purported benefits from chronic use.

In terms of "endurance sports" it might make sense for roadies who may have to repeatedly dip into 30-second max-type efforts while attacking (or covering attacks). The type of racing that most closely matches short-intervals-to-exhaustion studies might be track racing. Points racing, madison, and miss-n-out races all involve doing things very much like short, intense intervals with some rest in between. Madison in particular.

I have a few packets I got for free. I'l try them out in my track points races and give my n=1 results....although it'll be near useless feedback since points race success is dominated by situational tactics.

I used this stuff at the BWR. Nothing magic either way - it was my first experience on a hard ride with it. My legs held up well, but I was also in very good shape for it. It's definitely nice though even just as embrocation. No meaningful conclusions of any kind at this point. I got two tubes of it for free. This sort of thing is really hard to A/B test, but I might try some hard trainer sessions to give it a shot.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

While it wouldn't be blinded (not easily anyway), why not slather up the left leg with this stuff and placebo on the right? You'd still want to rub something on the placebo leg, lotion or whatever.

I was curious and signed up for Topical Edge emails. Just received one with the following



That's a hell of a review. Followed the link to the reviews and didn't find this one... This isn't a form of marketing that makes me trust Topical Edge:)

I have been using for about a year.

Using for hard sessions (bike racer only) and racing as well as all harder rides or long during bigger training block. Not sure if mental or not but I feel it works , during legs feel better, less burn. But best yet is feel I recover faster for next day. My 2cents but not many things I spend money on since I am cheap -outside of bike stuff but this is worth a try.

So it doesn't completely eliminate DOMS or lactic acid failure, it just delays and reduces it. I mean, training for a year will do the same thing but you are now simply riding faster and longer than you were on your first group ride even though you aren't as sore. And then, if you use the lotion, you can ride even harder, hit that lactic threshold and still be sore the next day. Yes, if you simply go out and put the same amount of power out as you normally do without the lotion, where you would normally hit that lactic threshold, but now you are just no longer getting sore, perhaps, that will stunt any growth or improvement...maybe, I don't have the answer to that but I think in theory, you are just going to go as hard as you can and if this stuff makes you go 11% faster before you reach that lactic threshold, then great, you just went faster for longer before the burn. But in theory, your legs will perceive the same amount of burn and exhaustion but they are just propelling you faster while they do it. You have moved that threshold up.

I used this stuff for the first time on Sunday and beat my long year standing PR on a popular Sprint going into a headwind with only a one man lead out and then KOMd a climb out of a bunch of ravines that has been contested by over 4000 riders. I have been riding theses segments almost 300 times over the past few years, usually with large fast group rides and it took all this time, the first day i used this lotion, to beat my old PR by 2 seconds and KOMing another segment while just riding with one other dude. Yes I still hit a lactic threshold but it just took longer to hit and I was able to power through longer. But, I didn't use the lotion after the ride so I was sore the day after and I had a bad crash last wednesday so I don't know who much of the hurt is from which but I was sore yesterday and still sore today. However, I just wouldn't have been able to push that hard without the lotion and now my body is "adapting" to that workout. I think it's the same theory with steroids in that they don't automatically make you stronger, they just allow you to lift more weight but the strength you gain after, is still real.

And I am sure there is a scientist out there who will tell you that even with the lotion flushing the lactic acid, your body is still doing the work even if you aren't working harder and just pushing the same power as you did on rides before you used the lotion, or maybe your point is valid and by using the lotion, if you train with the same previous power as you did before, you might be blunting any adaptations in the body but again, I think the main point is that you are simply putting out more power than before and just moving that threshold higher like you might have done in your first year of training. For instance, if you were doing Zwift workouts based on an FTP of 270 and those were a challenge, then if you are using the lotion you might want to move that FTP up to 300 and your legs will then perceive the same effort with the same lactic acid build up and recovery soreness but you were simply able to just push more power while doing so. It doesn't completely eliminate lactic acid buildup or DOMS.

That's my take on it anyway and as I said, I have only used the stuff once but there was a noticeable difference in my perceived effort, on that PR I was shocked to see the time as I didn't even feel like I was going at 100% and that is a spot that 99% of the time I ride it, unless I was simply the lead out guy, I was trying to beat my PR and this time I felt I worked half as hard as usual and still beat my time by 2seconds. The climb on the KOM was still an effort that hurt but a KOM on a climb is different than a PR on a sprint so... ANd maybe this one ride isn't enough data to make a snap judgement but it sure felt like I had put in an extra year of training...And again, I was still recovering from a bad crash from 4 days ago.

My n=1, tried it 3 times. TT, crit, and road-race. All three performances were pretty lackluster. Which can be caused by myriad factors. But no obvious "signal" for me.

So two things that I have sort of noticed, I did put "some" on Saturday and didn't really go hard at all due to the group I was with so I didn't notice much of a difference but I later found out you need a sliver dollar sized dollop for each leg. On Sunday I used that amount and it was night and day. However, upon some reading, I also sort of found out that perhaps a magnesium deficiency can make this less effective.

And while a TT should be noticeable to a degree in that it's just you and your power, and not necessarily a faster or slower race pace (though elevation and wind could alter results), I would think it would be hard to judge one race from another. My segments I have done almost 300 times, in much better case scenarios than what I had on Sunday but still got several PRs and a KOM. The difference was just as big as the first couple or rides after I bought deep carbon wheels.Also, I think in one of the studies they had a hard time finding a performance benefit in a one hour time trial. So really the place you would expect to see more improvements are in situations like a Crit where you are constantly exploding in an almost interval type fashion. And for the one hour time trial, while one study found no actual performance benefit, the company still claims it's an effective recovery aid afterwards. So while perhaps not making you faster in a long time trial, it can make you less sore the next day and ready to go again...Or so they say. ANd the studies on sodium bicorbonate in general, are fairly sound and established.

But for me, putting just a little bit on really didn't do anything noticeable, I had to really lather it up and rub it in deep and hard in a massage type fashion. You can't just wipe it on like sunscreen or moisturizing lotion.

And I agree that my 1-1/2 rides with it can't really be a good "study", especially since putting just a little on seemingly did nothing (although I was able to get the best time for the day on some of my segments including a boat ramp with stronger guys, nothing was a PR). It wasn't until the second day where I put a full silver dollar sized gob on each leg where I noticed the difference. And I had also taken a magnesium supplement as well. Not sure how sound the science is with the magnesium but I am just saying I did take a supplement and a lot of people unknowingly have magnesium deficiencies. Not saying there's a definite connection but some of the things this lotion does sort of supplements the things magnesium can do for athletes as well.

I also sort of link it to beet juice to a degree though a bit different as the beet juice affects by exertion effort and cardiovascular system more than my muscles but it's not that i feel faster with beet juice, it's that I feel less fatigued for the same efforts when I have beet juice. But you aren't going to rub this stuff on and all of the sudden be Peter Sagan, you still have to really push it to notice a difference. I think it only really aids in max efforts, same as beet juice, I don't notice if I have or haven't had my beet juice on a long steady tempo effort, it's the max sprints and climbs and harder efforts where I see the benefit. And in a TT, you don't really hit Z5 in short intervals, it's a steady pace where I think the studies have shown this cream is less effective in increasing performance. I would use it on a ride that you do often and compare your PRs in the sprints and climbs on those rides and see if you notice the difference. Or maybe on a fast group ride and try hanging on the wheel of a guy who can generally drop you or that you have always failed to beat in a sprint and see what happens. Also on that KOM, I was neck and neck with the fastest guy on our team and while he did pull earlier in that section, he can still normally drop everyone on that climb after, this time I beat him up the climb. I'm still never going to beat that guy in a race head to head but this seemed to put me closer to his abilities that what I otherwise would be.

I don't have a dog in the fight either way, I just don't think it was a coincidence all these events happening on one ride where I put ample PR lotion on each leg. Maybe time will tell and all sort of other factors were in play that day.