Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's.

Apr 28, 03 4:57

Post #1 of 61 (7579 views)

I wanted to throw a couple comments out there for your evaluation and response in reply and continuation to the post about St. Anthonys being dangerous:

1. Team in Training has brought a lot of new athletes into the sport: That's good.
2. Team in Training has a cadre' of individuals who are referred to as "coaches" who assist participants in achieving their goal. These people are not all qualified "coaches". That is bad.
3. May I suggest that one thing missing from the Team in Training concept is a "testing phase" that educates and tests new athletes on remedial swimming, biking and riding skills so as to not pose a hazard to other athletes in a race. The TNT athletes would go through the testing phase, learn transitions, riding a straight line, anti-drafting etiquette, how to go through an aid station properly, etc. before they do their first race. This would enhance their enjoyment of the race and the quality of their expereince.
4. Remember, we were all new at this once, and we were all that person who was "in the way". In my first triathlon back in the early '80s I was second from last. In junior high school I was in a special education gym class.
5. Overall, TNT has been an enormous boon to the sport and endurance sports in general. Are there drawbacks? Certainly. But it is head and shoulders above any "system" we had before to bring people into the sport. It just needs some minor improvement.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 5:40

Post #2 of 61 (7543 views)

My thoughts are Triathlons need to change their format from age group races to ability/predicted time races. You can still have age group categories for awards, just don't start the race by age group categories. This would solve one of the biggest problems TNT and other oganizations have caused IMO.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [TRI] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 5:45

Post #3 of 61 (7536 views)

That's a good idea but imagine the logistical challenges of trying to actually administer an event this way. Race directors have too many problems already!

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:02

Post #4 of 61 (7524 views)

I wish they would have a mandatory meeting at every race just to say stay to the right pass on the left. I can't believe how many newbies don't know this. It should also be sent with all conformation. I always have to slow down for people riding in the middle or on the left. Also how about a heat for: " I don't care about placing I just want to finish and do a race" This would let them go last and ride together etc.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:04

Post #5 of 61 (7519 views)

Actually,

It isn't much harder, if at all. I mean we have computers these days don't we. I did 2 triathlons this past year that were done this way and they seemed to work out just fine. Basically they asked for 4 pieces of info. Predicted swim time, bike time, run time and if this was your first triathlon. In one race I flatted and it took me about 11 minutes to fix. I couldn't get my extenda valve off my flat tire and I didn't have one on the new one. Just when I was about to give up, I gave it one last try and was able to get it off (woo). Giving up 11 minutes though was too much for me to get back in the game. I was in about 6th place when I flatted, I ended up in 29th. Having to pass many of the people who had passed me got sort of sketchy, since some were not that good on the bike (Three Loop Course).

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [denewone] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:07

Post #6 of 61 (7514 views)

You are right, but this information is also in the USAT rule book- if people would just read the darn thing.....

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:08

Post #7 of 61 (7511 views)

If you remove of of the MOPers All the slow,all the Fat,just i general all of the people who will never win a race what will you have? A race no one will go to because if only the ELITE register and pay,the payback will be so low no one will come because of the purse

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:11

Post #8 of 61 (7507 views)

Marshalls should also be on the course enforcing these rules.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [randall t] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:15

Post #9 of 61 (7504 views)

Randall,

I don't believe anyone is suggesting removing these "MOPers" as you say. We are basically saying to the Race director, look there is a problem and here is how you can fix it.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:17

Post #10 of 61 (7503 views)

Tom,

I have long thought that one way the solve the problem being discussed in this and the other thread on St Anthony's is to do the waves based on ability. It really wouldn't/shouldn't be that hard to do through USAT. Their data base could keep track of performance and you are assigned a ranking, say 1-10, and that is the wave you are in. Sort of like we have Cat 1-5 + citizen divisions in cycling. The race director could combine or split the groups depending on the number in the race. Would this system be perfect, no. But I would argue that it would be much safer and would be possibly even easier to administer. What do you think?

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:29

Post #11 of 61 (7483 views)

Uh... As an "independent" newbie I was not required to undergo any testing. As far as i know, the only thing it takes to quailify for these triathlons is money in hand, and the patience to sign up. I'm pretty tired of people trying to decide if others *deserve* to be in the race.

Team in training is also not something you qualify for... a sh!tload of money begged, borrowed or stolen? from your friends, co-workers and family gets you your race entry, 100 new best friends, and some handsome purple attire. I don't think that they will soon be turning people away who can't do a track stand!

I believe clm in sf has worked to get a separate heat for the TNTers. That pleases everyone as long as it's couched in terms like "so they can participate together and cheer one another on" instead of "so those purple freaks get the f... out of my way." Those of you who want to change things in your local races might consider talking to her and doing something constructive.

Meg.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Meg] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:42

Post #12 of 61 (7456 views)

Meg,

This isn't a local problem. It is a triathlon problem. IMO age group starts don't work for promoting safe triathlons anymore when you have large numbers of first timers competing.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Meg] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:45

Post #13 of 61 (7453 views)

>>I believe clm in sf has worked to get a separate heat for the TNTers. That pleases everyone as long as it's couched in terms like "so they can participate together and cheer one another on" instead of "so those purple freaks get the f... out of my way."<<

Yes, after Wildflower Olympic 2002, my (among others) vociferous complaining got a separate, last wave start for TNT. As a Master's woman, I'm almost always in one of the last waves and it means passing lots and lots of people on the bike.

My other rub w/TNT is that once they "graduate from TNT, they join the local tri club and still expect to have everything spoon fed to them. "Why don't you have a training program for XYZ triathlon where you even wipe my butt for me?" OK, not quite that bad, but almost. Yo, that's what PAYING a certified coach is for.

Also, I have a friend here who works (or did) with TNT. She swears they teach them the rules REGULARLY, both in print and during the training sessions, but that when they get into a race, they become brain dead.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [david] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:47

Post #14 of 61 (7449 views)

That is a good thought but I beleive it is treating the problem symptomatically. The issue is there are new athletes coming into the sport at a tremendous rate who want, but may lack, technical skills and race experience. TNT tries to provide this framework. IMHO it sometimes gets lost in the execution. Some TNT networks or "cells" have done a good job, others less so. With the size of the organization maybe it is time for a nationwide TNT race series, open to first time TNT people only, and strictly for the purpose of learning (teaching) skills, developing safe, courteous racing habits, etc. Even the Romans had schools for Gladiators. The races could be the culmination or graduation from a prescribed (by Leukimia Society, TNT)curriculum of racing skill instruction. That way, the first timers have been exposed to all the technical skills they need prior to their first event, and the opposrtunity to practice them in a group setting. This is an opportunity to produce a new generation of highly proficient entry level athletes. Just throwing them into their own wave seems fraught with irresponsibility. It could be carnage. As an organization, I think TNT has to take greater responsibily for and accountability about preparing their athletes, not just running them around for a few months, giving them a purple shirt and saying "Go Team!".

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 6:58

Post #15 of 61 (7425 views)

For what it's worth, I did my first tri at Clermont as part of their spring series last year. Their solution was to have all first-timers go off in the same wave, which happened to be the last wave. Aside from the fact that we didn't muck up the course for those behind us, we got to "race" amongst ourselves, so some of us got some hardware, plus we got to pass some folks in the waves in front of us.

Worked out pretty well.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [ironclm] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 7:03

Post #16 of 61 (7417 views)

In Reply To:

As a Master's woman, I'm almost always in one of the last waves and it means passing lots and lots of people on the bike.

Ditto.

I really didn't think much about this (or maybe much else for that matter) 22 yrs ago when I started tris; but, as a master who is occasionally "1st overall master" (this may be ending very soon!) and usually starting in one of the later waves I think the sport is the most dangerous that I have ever seen it. I don't necessarily blame it on any one thing or group. I just think our thinking needs to "evolve" to handle the present facts. The bike element in the middle simply brings up concerns that other public sports don't have and it needs to be addressed better. Again, that is why I am for waves by some form of standardized seeding system.

Heck, I love all the newcomers and think that it is good for the sport - we just need to make it organized, fair, and safe.

-

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [david] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 7:35

Post #17 of 61 (7378 views)

I agree with this entirely. I think it further reinforces the need for some form of "pre-race" or instructional event conducted by TNT for TNT and all entry level athletes for that matter. In the U.S. Army the pass rate for their Ranger school was extremely poor due to the difficulty of the course. The Army recognized this and instituted a program called the "Ranger Indoctrination Program" or "R.I.P.". This was a "Pre-Ranger" school that gave people the "heads-up" going into Ranger school. Guys who went through R.I.P. knew what to expect and usually did much better than guys from the academies who were used to food and sleep, very little of which you see in Ranger School. TNT needs a "Pre-Race" indoctrination phase where athletes learn the techiques and courtesies of racing. Then they would be "model" athletes in conduct, sportmanship, technique and skills. Imagine a huge influx of technically proficient new athletes into our sport. More races, more athletes, more fun- more bike sales for me:)

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [TRI] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 7:42

Post #18 of 61 (7361 views)

Some races have more representatives from TNT than others... those of you who enter those races should work with your RDs and TNT to make the races as safe and fun for all competitors as possible. If St. Anthony's needs some work, than those of you in Florida (or who travel to the race annually) should take on some responsibility.

If you think all tris should be finish-time seeded then write to USAT. Have all of your friends write to USAT. I think it's a great idea and I'd be happy to sign your petition.

I wasn't trying to say it's a local problem. I'm trying to say if you see a problem, do something about fixing it--at least in those races where it pertains to you. Triathlon is supposed to be a "grass roots" sport, and we should welcome new competitors and well as new ideas on how the competition should be run. If you've got better ideas, then let them be heard. Ranting on the forum [and I don't mean you, TRI] doesn't accomplish a lot---with a lot of the slowtwitch audience, you are just preaching to the choir.

Meg.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [david] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 7:51

Post #19 of 61 (7333 views)

Two thing's that can be done: #1 is to email, ring or write the RD and let him know your concerns. But don't just let him know your concerns, offer solutions as well. Do it in a constructive way. Don't attack TNT or the RD for what has happened. Point it out, offer up other races as examples include a contact number or address if you have it. Be proactive not reactive.

#2 Go out and find your local TNT or even some newbies. Take some, all, a few to a parking lot then a grassy field. Teach them to corner, brake, get in and out of their pedals and pass safely. Then go to a field, teach them to bump shoulders and wheels, learn how hold onto your friends seatpost when going uphill etc. The take away is we have the ability, and I might say some of the responsibility since we will end up on the same course, to create change and improve the skills of new athletes, TNTers or not.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [denewone] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 7:53

Post #20 of 61 (7331 views)

Thats the key mandatory meetings not packet pickup until you have attended.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Meg] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 7:57

Post #21 of 61 (7320 views)

See, I knew we could all get along. :)

This topic is pretty hard to not get heated about on both sides. Luckily I have talked about this issue a lot. Meg your idea about a petition is very good. Maybe Slowtwitch could make an official petition for people to sign online.

My legs are still a little tired after yesterday's 70 miler in the mountains. Where you ask ? Skyline Drive VA. I believe the first climb was 4 - 5 miles right from the car and then it was either up or down for the rest of the ride. I might do it one more time before Ironman Brazil. The highlights of the ride were freezing on the decents (Temps started off around 45 degrees) and then going through a tunnel where I lost my vision for about 5 seconds. It was the weirdest feeling not really being able to see. I could see the exit, but it was completely black about midway through. It was the closest thing to an out of the body experience. Oh then lunch that took forever to get. Once we got it though it was really good.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 8:02

Post #22 of 61 (7311 views)

Most of the races in my area (DFW) are run by one RD (Jack Weiss). He is a very "by the book" kind of guy. He has a one page information sheet that is included in the race packet that references USAT rules and highlights some of the more common infractions (drafting, blocking, etc). He also has a pre race meeting 15min prior to the start that everyone has to attend - he then goes over the same rules. You have no doubt at the end of this (newbie or not) that he means business and will enforce all rules. Some people do not like this person's (percieved) abrasive personality - I have yet to see a race more tightly (and Safely!!) run than one of his. The ones who complain about his strictness are usually the ones breaking the rules. How hard is a pre-race meeting? Granted, the races I am referring to max at 600 people, but that is what megaphones are for.

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 8:14

Post #23 of 61 (7296 views)

I kind of agree with the newbies in the last wave idea. I am a newbie and will do my second (third and fourth) race this year. In my first race in 2001 (I took a sabbatical afterwards) I was out of the water in the top ten but couldn't ride to save my life. I am sure that there were a lot of guys cursing me on some of the uphills as I was having a tough time (no one told me to F*** o** though, I guess it was obvious that I was struggling). If I had started in the last wave then I would have had to run into a lot of people on the swim (i am used to swimming through people from polo) but wouldn't have been in the way as much on the bike and the race would have been safer for everyone.

My biking is slowly getting better though. I can now hold 16 MPH for an hour

____________________________________________

"which is like watching one of your buddies announce that he's quitting booze and cigarettes, switching to a Vegan diet and training for triathalons ... but he's going to keep snorting heroin." Bill Simmons, ESPN

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 8:37

Post #24 of 61 (7261 views)

USAT has already ruled on the wave situation by stating you will not be ranked if you race in an "elite" wave. There is a perceived advantage to being in the water first. One of the problems with ability waves is the policing of the bike portion. If those on the bike portion are of like ability, how many would you see hanging on to the person who just passed at 1/2mph faster? I saw this at IMFL last year when 1000 people came out of the water withing 10 minutes of each other. I don't draft but I can tell you it is almost impossible for the last wave people, if they are decent cyclists,to find anyone fast enough on whom to hang. The only problem I have ever seen in my wave is with the fast females. If any trains form, they form behind them.

Bob Sigerson

Re: Thoughts on Team in Training and St. Anthony's. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 03 8:43

Post #25 of 61 (7254 views)

TNT's job is not to create proficient, new athletes in triathlon---it's to raise money to fight disease. They portray endurance sports as fun and all-inclusive. I think you'll be hard pressed to convince TNT that there should be tests, or the possibility of not being eligible for the race if you can't perform certain skills. *Anyone* can register for the races, why should paying more to wear a purple shirt make someone less eligible.

There are probably some TNTers near your bike shop, and there are definitely some newbies. Offer a free bike handling course some weekend if you feel their skills are inadequate... that is the right way to create more proficient competitors and to increase your bike sales.

Meg.

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