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Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [bazilbrush]
[ In reply to ]
i don't subscribe to the WSJ, perhaps you can paraphrase the article?
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [tfleeger]
[ In reply to ]
Yep, hit the paywall.
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [tfleeger]
[ In reply to ]
The peloton exists by practical necessity. Riding in a big group reduces drag and saves energy for the people in the middle. Cyclists have known this for a century. But only now, in 2018, is anyone able to put a number on just how efficient it is.
As it turns out, riding in a tight peloton makes life easier than anyone thought.
According to a new study published in the Journal of Wind Engineering and Industrial Aerodynamics, riders in the belly of a peloton are exposed to 95% less drag than they would experience riding alone. Which explains the sensation all riders describe of being sucked along by the bunch while barely having to pedal.
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [imsparticus]
[ In reply to ]
imsparticus wrote:
According to a new study published in the Journal of Wind Engineering and Industrial Aerodynamics, riders in the belly of a peloton are exposed to 95% less drag than they would experience riding alone. Which explains the sensation all riders describe of being sucked along by the bunch while barely having to pedal.
For example, riding to a 4:30 IMTX bike split on <200w NP
Strava
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [bazilbrush]
[ In reply to ]
A few years ago Jim Martin (BioMcGeek) did a great webinar on drafting effects, overtaking distances etc.
I cannot currently find it. Perhaps he'll cruise by with a link or summary.
I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com
The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
I cannot currently find it. Perhaps he'll cruise by with a link or summary.
I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com
The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [sch340]
[ In reply to ]
As I was passing a huge group, I too saw this in reality at IMTX when I saw a women who had 55 on her calf, sitting in a group that was rolling along at 26mph. She was sitting up, having a snack, like it was a gentle Sunday ride....Was sickened beyond belief.
It was interesting to see how the authors noted to the draft benefit but also to the risks as you really need to be tucked into the group to get the super benefits they discovered, which opens the door to possible crashes, etc.
"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack
It was interesting to see how the authors noted to the draft benefit but also to the risks as you really need to be tucked into the group to get the super benefits they discovered, which opens the door to possible crashes, etc.
"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [sch340]
[ In reply to ]
I went along with my buddy the other week while he was doing his FTP test. For the 20 minutes he averaged 340 watts. I rode right on his wheel most of the time and averaged 200 watts!! For the last 2 or three minutes I rode out in the wind next to him to give encouragement and that is included in my 200 watt average!
-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [RowToTri]
[ In reply to ]
Out here in the midwest, we draft off haywagons at 30 mph for our version of the peloton.
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [CPT Chaos]
[ In reply to ]
CPT Chaos wrote:
As I was passing a huge group, I too saw this in reality at IMTX when I saw a women who had 55 on her calf, sitting in a group that was rolling along at 26mph. She was sitting up, having a snack, like it was a gentle Sunday ride....Was sickened beyond belief. It was interesting to see how the authors noted to the draft benefit but also to the risks as you really need to be tucked into the group to get the super benefits they discovered, which opens the door to possible crashes, etc.
so , seriously, you can hold 26 mph all by your lonesome?
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [Runguy]
[ In reply to ]
When I was passing that group I was putting out some solid watts and then once past I had to up it to keep them from latching on...I am a pretty strong cyclist so yes, I can ride at that speed on a fast course without too much bother.
"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack
"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [CPT Chaos]
[ In reply to ]
CPT Chaos wrote:
As I was passing a huge group, I too saw this in reality at IMTX when I saw a women who had 55 on her calf, sitting in a group that was rolling along at 26mph. She was sitting up, having a snack, like it was a gentle Sunday ride....Was sickened beyond belief. It was interesting to see how the authors noted to the draft benefit but also to the risks as you really need to be tucked into the group to get the super benefits they discovered, which opens the door to possible crashes, etc.
I don't have the coordination to ride in a peloton which is why I stick to non-drafting tris
And the example I gave wasn't an exaggeration - there were some guys in my AG that reported Strava power under 200w (I realize Strava under-estimates) and split 4:30 or under. I ran an imaginary BBS model for a 150 lb rider with that power output and got somewhere around a 0.18 CdA...
Strava
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [Runguy]
[ In reply to ]
Runguy wrote:
CPT Chaos wrote:
As I was passing a huge group, I too saw this in reality at IMTX when I saw a women who had 55 on her calf, sitting in a group that was rolling along at 26mph. She was sitting up, having a snack, like it was a gentle Sunday ride....Was sickened beyond belief. It was interesting to see how the authors noted to the draft benefit but also to the risks as you really need to be tucked into the group to get the super benefits they discovered, which opens the door to possible crashes, etc.
so , seriously, you can hold 26 mph all by your lonesome?
No he must have been doing 27 or 28 MPH by himself to pass them and then they were not able to latch onto him
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [sch340]
[ In reply to ]
Quote:
For example, riding to a 4:30 IMTX bike split on <200w NPCareful now!
If you happen to analyze power files from IMTX and note the dramatic drop in power and increase in speed at about the time that most folks start reporting packs forming, you'll get attacked as well as start hearing reports of tailwinds at gale force strengths.
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [sch340]
[ In reply to ]
sch340 wrote:
imsparticus wrote:
According to a new study published in the Journal of Wind Engineering and Industrial Aerodynamics, riders in the belly of a peloton are exposed to 95% less drag than they would experience riding alone. Which explains the sensation all riders describe of being sucked along by the bunch while barely having to pedal.
For example, riding to a 4:30 IMTX bike split on <200w NP
zing!
USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [Once-a-miler]
[ In reply to ]
Hell I did this the other day. I NEVER train in group rides. Always in aero bars and try to average 22-23 mph for 40 miles or so on my saturday rides. Im a big guy (lean but tall and powerful legs - sucky runner though haha)
I caught up to a pack of 7 or 8 cyclists doing about 24mph and it was hurting me and they seemed to be breezing along. I decided to try and catch them, caught them, and felt a "pull" effect maybe 4 bike lengths behind. I had to actually stop pedaling a few times and coast going 24mph so I didn't end up on their wheel. I thought it was cool so I got up on his wheel (by up I mean half a bike length as I was still in aero) and my god I really did not have to pedal hardly at all. few rotations, then coast, few rotations, then coast. It was absolutely mind blowing. I decided to get off the pack and cut out to the side and as soon as I got out of that slipstream it was back to "holy sh*t this is really really hard" haha
I never cared about drafters in races thinking everyone used it as an excuse to just hate on people since they had a small advantage and they were "cheaters" but now when I see them I know full well how much benefit they are actually getting.
I also now fully understand how you hear the big ol fat dudes at coffee shops with their biker friends saying they average 25mph in century rides. Haha ya but you are in the middle of a pack of 100 people and aren't doing sh*t.
I caught up to a pack of 7 or 8 cyclists doing about 24mph and it was hurting me and they seemed to be breezing along. I decided to try and catch them, caught them, and felt a "pull" effect maybe 4 bike lengths behind. I had to actually stop pedaling a few times and coast going 24mph so I didn't end up on their wheel. I thought it was cool so I got up on his wheel (by up I mean half a bike length as I was still in aero) and my god I really did not have to pedal hardly at all. few rotations, then coast, few rotations, then coast. It was absolutely mind blowing. I decided to get off the pack and cut out to the side and as soon as I got out of that slipstream it was back to "holy sh*t this is really really hard" haha
I never cared about drafters in races thinking everyone used it as an excuse to just hate on people since they had a small advantage and they were "cheaters" but now when I see them I know full well how much benefit they are actually getting.
I also now fully understand how you hear the big ol fat dudes at coffee shops with their biker friends saying they average 25mph in century rides. Haha ya but you are in the middle of a pack of 100 people and aren't doing sh*t.
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [Twinkie]
[ In reply to ]
Anyone motor pace
Wow it really is a thrill. You wait at the top of a hill for a truck to go by. Hammer down the hill and get in their draft.
Best trucks are the telephone trucks as they really slow down going up hill and if you kill yourself you can stay with them. Lol. Made me feel like the kid in that Breaking Away movie.
Ah so young and full of dreams. One of the best times if my life back in the early 80s
Wow it really is a thrill. You wait at the top of a hill for a truck to go by. Hammer down the hill and get in their draft.
Best trucks are the telephone trucks as they really slow down going up hill and if you kill yourself you can stay with them. Lol. Made me feel like the kid in that Breaking Away movie.
Ah so young and full of dreams. One of the best times if my life back in the early 80s
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [Twinkie]
[ In reply to ]
The point of the article was that the 'full surround' of the peleton was much greater than a paceline draft.
Riding in a fast pace line is nice, but can still be super hard. I think this experience is more like the mob you see at the beginning of a century / Gran Fondo where I can sometimes cover 25 miles in an hour and barley work. Yes I'll take a few pulls, but with ~100 people there is not much time in the wind and you can really get sucked along. In a pro peloton, their handling skills are so precise and the odds of bonehead moves is lower - they ride even closer for better benefit than we would see.
Looking at some pro power files from I used to think an 'average' rider could hang out in the peloton for the middle sections of the race ( after the break is gone and before the chase) - sometimes you see power in the 150-200 W range for a couple hours... but after speaking with some pros they think a club rider would crash out in the close confines. I'll just watch thank you very much...
" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978
Riding in a fast pace line is nice, but can still be super hard. I think this experience is more like the mob you see at the beginning of a century / Gran Fondo where I can sometimes cover 25 miles in an hour and barley work. Yes I'll take a few pulls, but with ~100 people there is not much time in the wind and you can really get sucked along. In a pro peloton, their handling skills are so precise and the odds of bonehead moves is lower - they ride even closer for better benefit than we would see.
Looking at some pro power files from I used to think an 'average' rider could hang out in the peloton for the middle sections of the race ( after the break is gone and before the chase) - sometimes you see power in the 150-200 W range for a couple hours... but after speaking with some pros they think a club rider would crash out in the close confines. I'll just watch thank you very much...
" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [mdiet22]
[ In reply to ]
It's fun to draft the buses in NYC.
Don't drown. Don't crash. Don't walk.
Don't drown. Don't crash. Don't walk.
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [sch340]
[ In reply to ]
sch340 wrote:
imsparticus wrote:
According to a new study published in the Journal of Wind Engineering and Industrial Aerodynamics, riders in the belly of a peloton are exposed to 95% less drag than they would experience riding alone. Which explains the sensation all riders describe of being sucked along by the bunch while barely having to pedal.
For example, riding to a 4:30 IMTX bike split on <200w NP
/Thread
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [RBR]
[ In reply to ]
I took the advice of staying as close as possible to the wheel in front to maximise draft a bit literally and last week, while riding at 5cm off the guy in front, touched wheels and ended up in a heap on the road.
Doh!
Doh!
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [RBR]
[ In reply to ]
RBR wrote:
Anyone motor pace Wow it really is a thrill. You wait at the top of a hill for a truck to go by. Hammer down the hill and get in their draft.
Best trucks are the telephone trucks as they really slow down going up hill and if you kill yourself you can stay with them. Lol. Made me feel like the kid in that Breaking Away movie.
Ah so young and full of dreams. One of the best times if my life back in the early 80s
"I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then."
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [hugoagogo]
[ In reply to ]
hugoagogo wrote:
RBR wrote:
Anyone motor pace Wow it really is a thrill. You wait at the top of a hill for a truck to go by. Hammer down the hill and get in their draft.
Best trucks are the telephone trucks as they really slow down going up hill and if you kill yourself you can stay with them. Lol. Made me feel like the kid in that Breaking Away movie.
Ah so young and full of dreams. One of the best times if my life back in the early 80s
"I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then."
You are so right. Working two jobs, drinking every night, training like mad, still time for a girlfriend and awesome racing.
Youth truly is wasted on the young
Re: The science of drafting/ pelotons [RBR]
[ In reply to ]
With all I read on the benefits of drafting I am always surprised out in the real world how many people can't hang on the back of a pace line or in a pack. I have been on both sides of this...
Are the real world benefits not really what we see on paper or is there really that much difference in the strength of riders?
Are the real world benefits not really what we see on paper or is there really that much difference in the strength of riders?
I’ve only done a few bike races and so keep that in mind
Behind a car and especially a truck you can gonamazong speeds. I was young and dumb when did it. Well to be honest I did t again on Sunday lol. I lost him at approx 100 cadence in 50x11 gear which equates to approx 35 MPH when he excellerated away
I don’t have a cyclocomouter so I don’t know for sure the speed
As for behind a bike for sure it is easier than on your own but no where near as that behind a car or truck. BUT I’ve never been behind or amongst 20 or 30 bikes
In the real world yes you can ‘shake’ the person behind you if you are able to gonsonmuch faster than that are capable of rising even with the aero benefit they receive
Behind a car and especially a truck you can gonamazong speeds. I was young and dumb when did it. Well to be honest I did t again on Sunday lol. I lost him at approx 100 cadence in 50x11 gear which equates to approx 35 MPH when he excellerated away
I don’t have a cyclocomouter so I don’t know for sure the speed
As for behind a bike for sure it is easier than on your own but no where near as that behind a car or truck. BUT I’ve never been behind or amongst 20 or 30 bikes
In the real world yes you can ‘shake’ the person behind you if you are able to gonsonmuch faster than that are capable of rising even with the aero benefit they receive