If only life were so simple...

Exactly.

What is the best political party?

It is almost a commensurate argument- there are that many variables. Add the attendant vagaries and motives of marketing and it is extremely difficult to seperate the wheat from the chafe in a the immensely complex aerodynamic topic.

Then there is the question itself: "Most aero bike".

In the quest for that one, convenient golden-BB metric of "best-ness" among tri bikes we've eschewed weight for aerodynamics. We want that one best measure of "best-ness". Our community has staggered over to aerodynamics as that metric, that calibration of goodness. Never mind fit or position or mechanical convenience or dependability. Give me one number that unerringly points to "best". Make it simple. Is it any wonder five ads in one magazine from five bike brands will simultaneously claim "most aerodynamic"?

It isn't that simple.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

libertarian

either the p4 or shiv

THe same answer as the first like 3 or 4 times you started this thread.

No, there is no data on the new Scott.

perhaps at zero yaw...

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Michael J. Pelechaty
Brewer, Black Box Brewing Co.

"Yeah, I was depressed for a little while, but then I remembered how awesome I am."

can of worms was just opened.

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Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, covered in scars, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'hell yeah', what a ride.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...hite_paper_lores.pdf

I don't know what youre trying to show me with the speed concept white paper

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Michael J. Pelechaty
Brewer, Black Box Brewing Co.

"Yeah, I was depressed for a little while, but then I remembered how awesome I am."

different manufactures graphs confirmed by others through field testing and in the tunnel.

its not just at zero yaw. cervelos are optimized around 10-15 degrees of yaw.

That is all well and good, but the conditions were not and could not be the same in all of those scenarios

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Michael J. Pelechaty
Brewer, Black Box Brewing Co.

"Yeah, I was depressed for a little while, but then I remembered how awesome I am."

As far as I know, the Plasma Premium, the Trek Speed Concept, the P4, the Felt DA, and the Shiv are the five fastest. I don't have the tunnel data on it. But from the people that I know that are in the tunnel with a lot of different bikes, these are the five fastest. No big difference between them - just pick the one you like and ride like hell...

This homemade beast...went flying by me at the Rev3 half...

"As far as I know, the Plasma Premium, the Trek Speed Concept, the P4, the Felt DA, and the Shiv are the five fastest. I don't have the tunnel data on it. But from the people that I know that are in the tunnel with a lot of different bikes, these are the five fastest. No big difference between them - just pick the one you like and ride like hell... "

Glad we finally got that settled.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Oh, quit ruining the game with reality checks!

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

I'm guessing the Blue Triad SL 2011 is up there with them considering they put in a good amount of tunnel time and it has an integrated stem/aerobar

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Michael J. Pelechaty
Brewer, Black Box Brewing Co.

"Yeah, I was depressed for a little while, but then I remembered how awesome I am."

I'd love to know how these bikes compare to the pre-UCI superbikes (Lotus, Hotta, Softride Rocket TT, Titanflex, Zipp, Cheetah).

Also, how the QR CD0.1 does. QR talks a lot about the great aerodynamics of the shift technology, but I've never seen any data.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I ask this with sincerity and not cynicism:

Why?

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Two reasons:

1. I'd be good to know how much (if any) headroom there is for easy gains in future bike designs. There are already a couple companies making non-ITU bikes (Ceepo, QR); it be great to see a new generation of "superbikes"......and would suck to drop $10k on a SC9.9 if something much faster was coming soon.

2. I want to know if the best aero bet is to get one of these frames off eBay or ST classifieds vs. getting a shiv/P4/SC/etc.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

1. I'd be good to know how much (if any) headroom there is for easy gains in future bike designs.

Since the majority of bike companies rely on brand identity and marketing through associations with top professional cyclists in addition to triathlon the answer to that question is- not much room for easy gains- maybe none- within current UCI specifications. A few manufacturers have already had hands-slapped because of pushing the limits. That is a costly mistake.

2. I want to know if the best aero bet is to get one of these frames off eBay or ST classifieds vs. getting a shiv/P4/SC/etc.

I work in the industry, but I know you as a smart lad from this forum. So I shall differ this question... and that, in itself, is an answer of sorts....

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

the ridley dean says "The worlds fastest bike" on the side of it. Im assuming its the ridley :) ::pink:::

Likely something like this.



I'm sure any upright bike can't compare.

Thanks for the replies. As you can gather from the uname, I ride a Titanflex. It's obvious that the design could be further improved (aero seatstays, cleaner cable runs, true airfoil downtube, SC-style brake/fork).

As you mentioned, the big boys invest in molds that can be used for ProTour (oops....Pro Team) as well as tri. They have no interest in making a non-UCI frame that also shows that their UCI frames are sub-optimal. My hope is that the smaller manufacturers who have virtually no non-tri business (when's the last time you saw a Cat 2 on a QR?) will throw five figures at a mold and take a chance on becoming the triathlete's weapon of choice.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I think thats the issue. 5 figures is likely very very low. 1st you have a decent engineer coming up with the design. Then computer modelling costs, then prototypes, wind tunnel cost, then you get to the mold, for 1 size.

Next comes marketing costs.

I've got to believe that a non UCI design can be faster than a UCI design. I just don't see how there arbitrary rules could magically be "ideal". However, it will take a fair amount of work to bgeat the best UCI designs.

Heck, I'd start with the Lotus, go with a Felt hinged front end and Trek front brake / rear brake. My guess is, even if lotus, Felt and Trek agreed not to sue, you would spend way more than 5 figures reverse engineering everything and getting production tooling made.

Styrrell

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Styrrell