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The more is MORE revisited
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The "more is MORE" is all over Slowtwitch. Some people I coach use it in their signature files, some use it in a sarcastic way and there are some that say they will introduce the "more is MORE" concept in their training.

Even though I feel flattered by the popularity of that little phrase, the fact that it is composed of three words of which two are the same leaves a lot of room for misunderstandings. I'm pretty sure that nobody remembers anything else from the original post except the... more is MORE! There is the risk that some of you out there, following what you think is the "more is MORE" approach will come back in January saying that the "more is MORE" doesn't work, that got you overtrained, injured, etc. And because increasingly people have a difficulty assuming responsability, it will be MY fault. Therefore, I feel that a clarification of the "more is MORE" approach is needed.

The "more is MORE" approach simply states that improvement comes from increased training load. It might sound simple but it is not. A lot of people week to week, month to month and even year to year go through their established training routine and stay at the same training load. As a coach, I have worked with athletes that were self-coached for a lot of years before getting me as a coach. When after some months I asked them what was the main difference between being self-coached and coached, they told me invariably two things: First, their easier training cycles were easier than before (and that includes taper) and their harder weeks were harder. Second, and this one is more important, their overall training load was increased and they felt that was the factor that had brought them to the next level.

Another important aspect of the "more is MORE" approach is the rate of progression of the training load. Like somebody that posted on the original thread said, most people over-estimate what they're capable of training. I remember that when there was a thread about Peter Reid's training week published in Triathlete Magazine, a lot of you posted that doing that week was possible. However, none of the people that post here have won IMH three times. This is where a good coach can make a huge impact, in judging the appropriate progression in training load. Some athletes need to be pushed beyond their confort level to improve. Others need to be brought down from what they think they can handle in order to improve. Do you think you know what type you are? Most of the times the athletes themselves can't tell which type they are, which means that the ones that need to be pushed don't improve because they "undertrain" and the ones that push too much don't improve because they overtrain.

The last important aspect of the "more is MORE" approach is the individual constraints that every single athlete has, for "bottom of the pack" to elite level. I have talked about this a lot before, but I will stress it again. It can be VO2Max, family, tolerance to heat/cold, work, etc, but any training program should be designed with those limitations in mind. Failure to do so, and your performance will suffer. Again in this case, it is good to have a realistic person by your side, and that person seldom is yourself.

Questions, constructive criticism welcomed. Please limit n=1 anedoctes to a minimum. Thank you.
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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that is really excellent post. i wish i could afford to hire you! (maybe i should say, good enough to hire you!)
Last edited by: kittycat: Sep 27, 06 11:24
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent post and it makes a lot of sense.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo, I really love your posts.

Actually, I thought this was going to be about The PAULO vs The Sergio threads.

:-)


Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent ? Yes. Obvious ? Yes ? It's a shame some athletes fail to understand what "more" means.
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Just to remind you, that "somebody" was Gordo ;-)
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for this. I was thinking of this exact topic on my run last night. I misunderstood and just thought you were some kind of kook (sp?). To me it sounded like I should just go out there and do 100mi/week running, 400mi/week bike, and 50,000M swimming. Obviously, I would end up dead, but more is supposed to be more...

So, thank you for clarifying what you meant.



----------
"...it should be swim, bike, run, cage fight." - el fuser
"I noticed that I am in your sig line! Wow! That's s first for me. Thanks." - Fleck
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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I, for one, would like to continue to learn more about more is more.
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have a prefered way of adding up training stress for running like TSS does for cycling? Or is it just a feel or experience thing you have?

I noticed Daniels has a way of doing it. Do you agree with his method of attaching a score to a particular pace and time and then adding them up for a week or whatever training cycle is used?

jaretj
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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I see what you're trying to do, throw a bunch of great info out there just as the "who do you unequivacally trust" thread is starting to generate some steam :)
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Questions, constructive criticism welcomed. Please limit n=1 anedoctes to a minimum. Thank you.
___________________________________

I LOVE your posts.....but I can't speak for anyone else.

; )

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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ok...i m way too comfuse to read to full post...just tell me, dos it mean i have a day off?????

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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"This is where a good coach can make a huge impact, in judging the appropriate progression in training load."

I think that's the nail on the head and is exactly what I struggle with. I'm improving (rather significantly, actually, year over year) but still wonder if I could be pushing it harder.

I remember a quote from Gordo on the original more is MORE thread where he stated that (among other things) most people under-estimate the hard efforts required. And this is where I personally struggle, because my hard workouts are hard and leave me pretty shelled.

But I still can't help but wonder if I should be doing that repeat just a little bit faster, or moving to more repeats sooner, etc.

I guess that's the value of the coach, eh?

Thanks for the post.
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [5 Sticker Rides] [ In reply to ]
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It's a shame some athletes fail to understand what "more" means.

Agreed. I love the posts where the training advice is simple and intuitive because there are so many posts that are not. It's really not rocket science so I applaud those who keep it simple.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo,

Good info. I think also part of the confusion is that people mostly translate more with time/distance but also intensity is a factor of the MORE. In my own experience a week with 2 hard trainer rides is a harder week than one with 2 road group rides even though the latter is a lot more total time (no, i dont count the 15 minutes at the coffee shop as part of the ride:)

Peace

*** as always, love your posts!!!

______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD

Team Aquaphor 06-08
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo, I'm all tingly.

_________________
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Gee, where have I heard this? You.have.been.assimilated! ;-)

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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So why not instead, say

"Periodized approach" instead of More is More?

IMO, more is not more, for every discipline of cycling, more may be more for Ironman, I don't know, probably is

More L3 miles and base strength/endurance work will help for endurance events, but does this apply to L4-5-6 performance in a crit or on the track? Yes, I would say yes, but without a periodized approach of increasing volume, then decreased volume, the More is More is not the best approach

With the right program of specific intervals, most any able triathlete can move from the 24 MPH range to the 26 MPH range (over sprint distance) without increasing volume drastically. Specificity of the workouts is key, as is periodization

But then, I am running myself as a test case next season, remember? :)

Fitness + Freshness = Form
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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That is a very good question and something I thing a lot of people completely missed in More is More Part I. I like the way the polar heart rate software allows you to setup exertion scores for each sport, although I only use that program for running. The exertion score is calculated by taking the exertion score for each heart rate zone x the time spent in that zone x the sport specific factor. The exertion score is automatically calculated for each workout and can be viewed over time. Once you dial in how much recovery you need for a given score it makes it much easier to plan workouts, weeks, etc. It will also help you quantify your recovery weeks, so that you can "see" what a total exertion score for a recovery week looks like in comparison to a normal or hard week. The key is to stick with one methodology and not screw around with your exertion scores for each heart rate zone.

The polar software manual has good information on this feature. Just go to PPP 4.0, page 144.

http://polarusa.com/...df&x=52&y=11

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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"Some athletes need to be pushed beyond their comfort level to improve. Others need to be brought down from what they think they can handle in order to improve. Do you think you know what type you are? Most of the times the athletes themselves can't tell which type they are ..."

Absolutely. And I am sold on this notion even more now that I am a beginning coach (high school cross country). Some kids have no idea what they are capable of, others, well, they're dreaming. But how to communicate this empathetically, gently, and subtly, that's the kicker.

Most difficult is the mental/psychology component. I know amazing athletes who are uncompetitive and lazy and total spastics who have more heart than Michael Jordan.

I could also use someone objective to assess what I need to do, as I don't feel I can judge myself all that well ...
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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if you wrote more often with this kind of clarity, depth, and acknowledgement of people in the 'real world' having huge variances of understanding, interpretations, and actions, especially in regard to the many gray areas in something as poorly understood as the body's reaction to stress and training, i would find your writing much more interesting.

i am sure you have had very interesting subjects taught to you by horrible professors. i wanted to escape these classes as soon as possible.

but perhaps you have also had the good fortune to have chanced upon upon initially boring subjects, but taught by truly gifted and passionate instructors. i loved these classes and would have paid good money to take them.

perhaps these experiences helped me become a better instructor. i hope so. but they sure made me understand that, yes, the message is important, but the messenger and the way the message is delivered can often be far more important than the actual information.





Where would you want to swim ?
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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"way of adding up training stress for running like TSS does for cycling?"
---------------------------------

Google TRIMP

or

http://www.ismarttrain.com/articles/TRIMPS.html

Haim

-------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"
Last edited by: Haim: Sep 27, 06 12:19
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Some very good points Paulo, as I sit here with a self induced injury from trying too much more, I wonder what category of athlete I fit into...........?

I think the problem is that a quite a few people misunderstood what "more" is and simply think it means more volume. As I understand you more can mean longer at the same intensity, for example progressing from 2x10 minutes at 290W up to 2x20 minutes at 290W or a long ride at 200W progressing from 3 hours to 5 hours. More can mean more intensity for example doing repeats up a 5 minute climb and slowly increasing the norm power by a few watts per repeat each week, or dropping your 1 mile repeat times by a few seconds.

By the way......

I really love your posts!

Kevin
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]The "more is MORE" is all over Slowtwitch. Some people I coach use it in their signature files... [/reply]

Who would do that?

--------------------------

Team Timex 2014
@ajhodges
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Re: The more is MORE revisited [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo...excellent post. Jonnyo...after all the volume you have been doing, the Paulo post would suggest that you might be due for an easy week to absorb all that volume!
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