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The dirty truths of bicycle lead times.
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There have been some lively posts over the past two days about bicycle company customer service, delivery times what expectations customers should reasonably maintain. I jumped in to defend Felt's customer service in particular- becasue I believe in them as a company, along with several others.

A few points I want to make, for your review and commentary, are listed below:

1. Manufacturers and wholesale distirbutors are not retailers. As such, they require retailers to sign documents called "Dealer Agreements" that stipulate clearly and in writing the roles each party will play. In these agreements (most of them) it is stipulated that interaction with the customer is largely the commensurate responsibility of the Dealer (retailer), not the manufacturer or distributor.

2. Some dealers do a good job, or at least the best they can, of maintaining communication with their retail customers with information about lead times and delivery times. Others, less so. It is often a frustrating job since there is frequently little or no information to convey until delivery is complete.

3. At our store we are very assertive and honest about the vague and uncontrollable nature of lead times. We do not make promises for other companies we may not be able to keep, and we put as much information in writing as possible to avoid confusion. We also ask customers to sign a "lead time waiver" which acknowledges the facts of lead time problems that sometimes exist. Even with this, we still make mistakes and disappoint people. We're not perfect, we're only human, our intentions are good and we almost always, with very few exceptions, deliver within lead time estimates or less.

4. It has been my experience that customers hear what they want to hear. They frequently contort, either willfully or unknowingly, dialogue about lead times. A statement by a shop employee such as "It will probably take 3 or 4 weeks" is restated by the customer as "They promised the bike in four weeks". There is an enormous difference between those two representations. Customers tend to modify the interpretation to their favor, rather than to the realities (however unfortunate they may be) that exist.

5. Bicycle lead times for high end bicycles have been traditionally problematic and show little sign of changing.
This isn;t anything new. The volume of "Where's my....." posts on this forum over th last two years proves that. Why is anyone surprised?

Those are some semi-random thoughts. What are your reactions? This has been an intersting lesson set for me and us. And by the way, we only have a couple (literally, about three or four) bikes chronically late for delivery to customers right now out of over a hundred sold units.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a little surprised cos I don't get to buy bikes too often, and I'm therefore unfamiliar with these dirty truths.

If you're not surprised with the dirty truths, then why are you surprised by all the "Where's my bike" posts? It's reasonable that disgruntled customers complain even though customers have complained before.
Last edited by: IanMcLaughlin: Feb 5, 04 8:38
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom,

Good post. I think your shop in having the customer sign a lead time waiver is the right thing to do. One comment I have, is that even if a shop employee casually mentions a bike normally arrives in 3-4 weeks, it is still seen an estimate by the customer. Giving an estimate based on past experience is fine. However, where dealers seperate themselves is letting the consumer know asap if the estimate is going to be incorrect.

I know you may be getting little information from the supplier, but especially for high ticket ($3K + bike, or a $1k wheelset) purchases I would expect to know if the estimate is incorrect before the estimated time of delivery comes and or passes.

I would imagine on higher ticket items this is even more difficult since inventories of these items are lower relative to mid to lower priced bikes. But that is in part the value a distributer brings to the supply chain. Possible solutions, track orders and when the estimated delivery time is coming in follow up with the suppliers. If the suppliers are not able to communicate this, it is your job as a dealer to make sure the suppliers know the importance to consumers of delivery times.

Peace

Rockfish
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like a case of don't shoot the messanger...

It's gotta be as frustrating for the retailer as it is for the customer. The customer has to realize that it isn't the shop's fault.
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [rockfish] [ In reply to ]
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I think this is right on the nose rockfish.

We currently have two bikes on order for two different customers that are chronically late. I know those two customer's names by heart and know the bikes by heart. I check on the orders ever day or two- literally. The squeeky wheel gets the grease.

I had the sales rep from one of the vendors in question phone the customer (even though it really isn't what he does) to update him on lead times.

The other bike: I e-mailed the customer before I left for Curacao to let them know their bike has arrived but apparently he didn't check his e-mail, the e-mail was unsuccesfully transmitted or I somehow screwed it up. When I got back from Curacao there was an e-mail that said "Any news on my bike?" Hmmmmm. Anyway. The situtation is on-going and close to resolution with an awesome bike prefectly fitted and meticulously built.

Good observation rockfish, and one I agree with.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [IanMcLaughlin] [ In reply to ]
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Another good observation IanMcLaughlin,

The thing(s) that surprise me are:

1. Complaining doesn't make the ship go faster from Taiwan to the U.S.

2. There is almost nothing anyone can do about it.

3. It is such an unconstructive use of time and energy- it doesn't benefit anyone. The time could be spent better elsewhere.

4. The first sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Two examples:
A. People ranting about bikes being late (they always are).
B. Me ranting about them ranting. (they always will).

I guess I'm as guilty as any of them, just a different offense.

On a seperate note, are you the former singer for Echo and the Bunnymen?

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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tom as far as reaction goes - suffice to say that there appear to guys out there who place a helluva lot more meaning into their personal retail satisfaction and demands than do i.

man!

to show you what a inept modern day consumer i am - i can recall when not knowing when you were gonna get your ( long delayed) new bike was part of the charm! and, even voluntarily stood in line to get a bike or two from dudes who made a point about not knowing when you were gonna see it so don't ask.


to think! i should have expecting regional sales reps to be laying awake nights so they could call the maritime shipping lanes on the air to sea channels to give me updates on my new 400 comfort bike i bought for my mom on her 55th birthday. i gotta get with the times, man. from now it is all about satisfying me, when i want, how iwant, where i want - to demand any less sounds downright unamerican. thanx to the s-twitchers for getting me up to speed!
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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You're thinking of Ian McCullough (who is no relation, but a much better singer). My gripe with Cervelo is detailed in another thread.

Re: complaining being a waste of time - you mentioned earlier about the squeky wheel getting the grease - I'm squeking and I want my P3. My problem appears to be with the manufacturers (until they tell me it's really a problem with the supply chain, and then I'll just blame everybody).

I'm guilty of not trawling through two years worth of messages to see if there was already several answers to my question. Even if I had, I'd probably still have posted to see if there was some sort of shortage this year.

I'm a paying customer and I want to know where my goods are. Sorry if I'm boring you, that's not the point.
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom,

I know that the apparel business is somewhat different than the bike business, but the savvy supplier/manufacturer can and should be able to take advantage of the situation, some how.

When I was at Sugoi, one of the reasons that we were hugely successful in building sales on both the cycling and running sides of the business was, that we did deliver on time, period! And we did fulfill all in season orders ASAP, period! Everyone at Sugoi worked very hard to do this. Yes the Sugoi, shorts, jackets, tights or whatever where slightly more expensive than the other brands that the retailers were dealing with on a regular basis, but we could get the Sugoi stuff in the store so the retailer could actually make money. You cant' make any money on back-ordered xxxbrand shorts! Sometimes, it took a few seasonal cycles for this message to get into the heads of some of the more stubborn retailers, but once on borad we had great customers for a very long time. Delivery is key.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In August 2002 I ordered a new German made car (in the UK). The salesmen told me that he can take my deposit now but cannot give me a delivery time until the actual order has been placed on the manufacturers. Therefore he will need to come back to me within 2 days. If then I’m not happy he will refund the deposit. OK, so paid the deposit, next day received a call and request for a fax number. Next thing I received a fax from the salesmen outlining the model, what extras I opted for etc. etc and was assigned an order number and most importantly an ETA! 1st week of October. They knew exactly their capacity, when for eg. seats will arrive (BTW leather seats for all the major German cars are made to order in South Africa and flown in 5 days a week). The car arrived BANG on time…. One happy customer as my expectations were managed all the time!



I guess my point is that maybe bike manufacturers are still living in the dark ages of technology and slick procurement. Technology has become cheap enough for all to embrace… even Tom is using it ;-)

I’m pretty sure enough parts from cars come from Taiwan… I think a happy customer will always consider his “brand choice” based on past experience. Also others might be put of by messages of “Where’s my bike”.

OK that’s my gibberish for the day….

=====================================
For one who has no objective, nothing is relevant. (Confucius)
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
1. Manufacturers and wholesale distirbutors are not retailers. As such, they require retailers to sign documents called "Dealer Agreements" that stipulate clearly and in writing the roles each party will play. In these agreements (most of them) it is stipulated that interaction with the customer is largely the commensurate responsibility of the Dealer (retailer), not the manufacturer or distributor. To be honest, as a customer, this does not concern me. *I* haven't signed any dealer agreements. If my bike is delayed, and it's clearly the fault of the manufacturer/distributor, I'm going to be contacting the manufacturer/distributor and asking why.


4. It has been my experience that customers hear what they want to hear. They frequently contort, either willfully or unknowingly, dialogue about lead times. A statement by a shop employee such as "It will probably take 3 or 4 weeks" is restated by the customer as "They promised the bike in four weeks". There is an enormous difference between those two representations. Customers tend to modify the interpretation to their favor, rather than to the realities (however unfortunate they may be) that exist. No doubt that's often the case. On the other hand, "probably three or four weeks" should not be understood to mean "probably three or four weeks, but maybe three or four months."

5. Bicycle lead times for high end bicycles have been traditionally problematic and show little sign of changing. This isn;t anything new. The volume of "Where's my....." posts on this forum over th last two years proves that. Why is anyone surprised? It isn't that I'm surprised, it's that I'm frustrated by the apathy about it. Maybe on-time delivery of bicycles has been traditionally problematic. You seem to be saying that it's a tradition; I'm saying it's a problem.













"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"To be honest, as a customer, this does not concern me."

If it didn't concern a customer, then why would they call and throw their toys when their bike is "late". It really isn't late. It just takes a long time to get bikes and despite being told that repeatedly people still can't get it through the thick, gelatainous mass between their plugged-up ears. It does concern customers. They shit a cinder block sideways when their bike even smells like it might be "late". That means that from January to July the only time I really sleep soundly is when I'm out of the U.S.

"On the other hand, "probably three or four weeks" should not be understood to mean "probably three or four weeks, but maybe three or four months."

Why not? it's a purposely open ended statement. In the military we used to file reports that said things like "The target was significantly compromised with an attendant degradation of the enemy's capabilities." Which means, in english: "It was dark, some shit blew up, we think we broke some important stuff but frankly were running too fast to notice or care."

"You seem to be saying that it's a tradition; I'm saying it's a problem."

It's a traditional problem. Like Plato said: "Only the dead have seen the end of war." I say, "Only the dead have seen the end of bike delays."

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Hello,

The weird thing is sometimes complaining does make the ship go faster. I've seen lots of customers raise hell after being told something doesn't exist and then get their way. I suspect that they are being given another customers item in the hope that they won't be picking it up until another shipment comes in. The problem is this makes all retailers look bad.
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone ever watch the show "Airline" which is a reality show where they follow around emplyees of Southwest Airlines as they do their jobs (I watch it since my wife is in the travel industry and finds it very interesting). After watching that show a few times, I had decided that the people that work at the customer service counter for airlines where angry passengers converge when their luggage gets lost must have the worst job in the world for dealing with cranky, irritated customers ........ maybe this title should go to the bike shop emplyee who gets stuck trying to pacify/console/explain why the "guaranteed to make me faster, looked really cool in the pictures I saw from Interbike, slickster tri-weapon of choice for this year" has not arrived or is sitting in a warehouse in Taiwan when they want to ride it yesterday?
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not trying to get into specifics about bike manufacturing ... I just wanted to point some things out.

1. These threads about "late bikes" are likely a result of cybrog42's felt customer service thread.

2. She paid for a bike, it was mentioned it would be here for Christmas, then it was postponed, then it was postponed, then it was postponed.

3. Not once did cyborg42 complain about a "late bike".

4. She e-mailed the company, and got no response.

5. She called the company and listened to the phone ring.

6. She kept calling and talked to the controller, who told her they couldn't take a message.

7. Her bike is way overdue, and all she is complaining about it that no one will "talk to her"

------------------------------------

I think that all of the "customers need to shuddup" posts are just as out of line as the "bike manufacturers are the devil" posts.

I think everyone realizes that delay will occur ... but in the "Communication Age" where we can contact each other in a variety of ways at an impulse ... there's no excuse for not being able to communicate with a customer or vice-versa. No matter how big or small a company. I'm certainly not the model for behavior, but I did want to point out what the original complaint was about.

Shockingly to me, she isn't complaining about rhe bike. She has patience I could only dream of. I guess that's why I am going to such length's to defend the lady. She has been understanding and compliant to a fault, and she's getting somewhat beaten up over something she hasn't even done ... complain about the damn bike being waaaaay late.

Hope I'm not out of line in writing this post. If I am it certainly won't be the first time, but I feel as though I'm doing the right thing. I keep reading posts about impatient and whiny customers, but I'm not seeing the impatient and whiny customer.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Hey there, new guy first post. I have heard a lot of the problems with lead times this year are coming out of shimano. It seems there is a huge upswing in road/tri bike vs mountain bikes and they are having problems deliverings, especially ultegra/da stuff. I heard numbers like an 800% increase in demand for road components. This may or may not be accurate, only relaying the info I got.
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I have a way around all of this. I don't buy stuff unless I can put my hand on it or I can get a solid date. Easy.

As far as sympathy for manufactures when they can't get the product to the people...don't have any. It's the whole vapor where issue. Just put up or shut up. A company advertise a product but can't keep up with demand will get pissed off customers. Tough titty. Bike shop says "3 or 4 weeks" That's three or four weeks. After four weeks your going to get me as your new best friend till it comes in. Really can't loose sleep over it.

Like we say at the warehouse. I work for the customer not the company.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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As Postmanpat points out, it doesn't have to be that way. The technology has been with us for a long time to manage the supply chain and have a seamless communication loop from manufacturer to transportation to distributor to retailer to customer.

The only reason companies fail to meet lead times and provide accurate information to Tom and his colleagues for expecation management is because they don't want to.

David
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I ordered my Trek 2300 and the dealer told me it would be about a month. He called after a week and said my bike was in and I could pick it up the next day. I was so happy I almost cried. A cynic might say they did that on purpose knowing they'd get the bike sooner than a month to make themselves look good. It worked, I LOVE that place!!
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [glider] [ In reply to ]
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Hey glider,

Your observation, IMO, is partially correct. The technology to track orders and identify their staus and position i the supply/manufacturing chain absolutely exists. No question.

However, it adds cost to the bikes. A LOT of cost. We are talking about a nickle and dime business here. At manufacturing cost the difference between Shimano 105 rear derailleur and Shimano Ultegra is very little, maybe (guessing) less than $2. The margins are microscopic.

If a distributor/manufacturer spent even $50K updating a supply chain logistical control system it would blow their price position against competitors out of the water. They couldn't come close to competeing on price.

I can see myself standing on the sales floor saying, "The 2004 Super Kona Deluxe with Shimano 105 sells for $1895.00"

The customer says: "$1895.00 sounds high for a Shimano 105 equipped, aluminum triathlon bike...."

My come back is, "Well, the Super Kona company just bought a new supply chain management system and the training to go with it. It caused their bikes to be more expensive but now I can accurately check inventory and give you precise lead times to the day with one phone call."

The customer will say, "I'll take the Felt..., It's $250 less."

Customers have told us again and again and again and again and again. They are NOT willing to pay for it.

Mr. Tibbs actually manufactured a pearl of genius in his post, and it is what we do here in the store for our own bikes sometimes: If it doesn;t exist, ready for overnight air shipment, don't buy it.

There are two bikes I have had on order (for myself) from two seperate manufacturers for almost 2 years (literally) now. I haven't seen either one. I check on them once in a while and the respective rep usually says, "Those actually are going to happen here pretty soon..." They've been saying that for 2 years.

I ride a Guru, a Cervelo and a Look becasue they actually exist. I also have a Felt DA650 becasue it actually exists. I'm thinking about getting a new Felt F15 Colavita Bolla team bike too. But guess what, it doesn't exist yet..... Not even the Collavita Bolla team manager had one in Curacao last week.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"To be honest, as a customer, this does not concern me."

If it didn't concern a customer, then why would they call and throw their toys when their bike is "late". It really isn't late. It just takes a long time to get bikes and despite being told that repeatedly people still can't get it through the thick, gelatainous mass between their plugged-up ears. It does concern customers. They shit a cinder block sideways when their bike even smells like it might be "late". That means that from January to July the only time I really sleep soundly is when I'm out of the U.S. I have a hard time believing you've really misunderstood me that badly on this point. To clarify: As a customer, I am not particularly concerned with what "service agreements" the dealer and the manufacturer/distributor have signed. For one thing, I am not privy to the details of any such contracts. Secondly, I am not a party to that contract, since I certainly haven't signed it. Finally, I simply don't care that the manufacturer/distributor believes customer service to be the sole responsibilty of the dealer, for whatever reason. Again, if my bike is late, and it's clearly the manufacturer/distributor's fault, I am going to contact them with the full expectation of some sort of explanation. And let's not be disengenuous about what "late" means. Noone has said that a bike that simply takes a long time to arrive is late. Let's say I order a custom bike, and the builder tells me it's going to take 18 months. I wait for a year and a half, then my bike shows up. That's not late, that's on time. Now let's say I go down to my LBS and order a shiny new ACME bike. I'm told it will be here sometime in April. April comes and goes. May comes and goes. The bike shows up in the middle of June. It's not on time. It's late.
"On the other hand, "probably three or four weeks" should not be understood to mean "probably three or four weeks, but maybe three or four months."

Why not? it's a purposely open ended statement. In this context, it's a purposely misleading statement. Here's another open ended statement: "It's possible ACME Bicycles will process your order today, and FedEx your bike- it may be here tomorrow afternoon." How does that one grab you? If you told a customer that, and it took a month for the bike to show up, do you think the customer has a right to be upset? More realistically, if I bring my car to a mechanic and I'm told that it will probably cost three to four hundred dollars to have it fixed, I don't expect to be presented with a bill for $1695.00. I am going to be upset if that happens.
"You seem to be saying that it's a tradition; I'm saying it's a problem."

It's a traditional problem. Well, thank goodness you're finally coming around and admitting it's a problem. ;)








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, no question on that dude or dudette- it is a problem. A big, nasty, "Tom gets no sleep, ear sore from talking on the phone" problem.

You're right about that. See, we do agree on something after all! :)

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: The dirty truths of bicycle lead times. [Tom H] [ In reply to ]
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I frequently promise such things. One of the products I sell was given an initial ship date of "Late December." Shimano production delays, and my own investigative measures alerted me to some of the items on that bike were not even slated for production until after Jan 1st.

Looking at the supply of 10 speed 55 tooth Dura Ace chainrings at being zero, I began to tell dealers that the product may ship by Spring.

I've stuck to it, and continue to suggest that the product may ship by April 1st. I've seen the ETA pushed back from late December to late January. Finally I see that the model in question is done, that is, it has completed the production phase and on its way stateside for delivery. So now it seems as though the item may arrive mid February, over a month before my estimate of Spring, but still over a month over initial projections.

I was asked Wednesday by a consumer when he can get this item, my answer was, "sometime around springtime"

-SD

https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era
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