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The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin
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Per Strava data, Garmin has a greater than 97% market share in the multi-sport vertical -- measured as devices used in long course triathlons -- and I think that's about to finally change (and I hope quite dramatically). The Apple Watch Series 4 was released last week with a health focus, including EKG technology, and the Karoo Hammerhead's use of Android OS for cycling technology promises a similarly powerful back-end tech for the device on your bars.

I have spent more money on Garmin products in the last 5 years than I have with any other company aside from maybe Felt and 3T, and their customer service is in fact amazing. But their products are terrible in practice. If you want to see how great Garmin devices are in theory -- along with every other device that is great in theory but doesn't work in practice -- you can read DC Rainmaker's reviews. But the fact remains: Garmin devices are terrible -- in the golden age of personal technology, the quality of these products has become almost farcically bad.

Last week, I headed out for what should have been my longest ever (by time) bike ride with three devices set to record my data: Edge 820, Forerunner 935, and my iPhone (using the Strava app). This is how I now ride, because I am so accustomed to one or more of my units failing to function that I have to prepare for that failure. Not even a mile in, I had to stop and reset the 935, which did not fully emerge from hard reset until half an hour later. The 820 lasted to the turnaround point. The Strava app on iPhone crashed, as it often does, when I took a picture from my phone.

Enough is enough. I ordered the Karoo Hammerhead and I'm picking up the new Apple Watch today. I already have the Wahoo Bolt thing, and while I haven't used it much, I don't think the Wahoo OS is sufficiently robust to allow for the advanced uses we should all have for these very expensive devices. At $500, these things should work as well as your phone and do basically what your phone can do, but better, because it is purpose built for the specific sports use case.

Why is this not a reality yet? I think it's about to be...I think (and hope) we will within the next year witness a sharp reversal in Garmin's share of multi-sport tech wearables and cycling devices. My sense is that commodity hardware products can and should proliferate around a unified Android OS tailored for sports tech (as they do in phones) and that software developers (like XERT, Strava, etc.) can and should develop products for Android OS and for iOS. Developers are wasting their time developing for the Garmin API, because the end result, no matter their efforts, is that it doesn't even work.

Hey, did you hear that Pioneer and Wahoo are going to work well together? Big yawn. Who cares? Everything should (and soon will) work with everything, just like it does on your phone. If you buy a $100 or $1,000 power meter device (or aero stick, or smart tail light), the fucking thing should have an app on your phone, on your watch, and on your cycling computer. It should be sold by a company with a customer service and support infrastructure that reflects the fact that it's 2018, and even the best companies aren't there (is it 9am in South Dakota yet, because I need some help with my Quarq).

Am I crazy here? Is this not about to happen? It seems so completely obvious that sports tech as an ecosystem should look like the cell phone space, and it feels like the pieces are finally there. Until then, you'll see me running with a 935 and an Apple Watch, and riding around with a 4 lb Karoo android tablet on my aero bars, with the 935 and Apple Watch as backups.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I almost never have issues with Garmin products. My 920xt works every time I use and the only issues I have with the edge 810 is that it sometimes drops live track.

The Apple Watch is still not a training device for anyone that cares about metrics. It also has a major issue and that’s battery life. Having to charge it every day is pain. If I forget to charge either Garmin I still have multiple workouts until they run out of power. You’ll never get that with the Apple Watch currently.

I love the concept of the Apple Watch and I think it’s a wonderful product, but it’s a fitness Watch still not a training device.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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1) Sounds like you're angry, justifiably. (been there)
2) Garmin wouldn't get to 97% market share if they didn't have at least SOME quality/reliable products.
3) Hopefully there is more competition, but I think Garmin is the closest company out there to providing what you're wanting. Software is primarily the difficult part in building these things, though I'd agree that at least some of their products are lacking in hardware capabilities
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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my Garmin stuff works like a dream (Fenix 5 and 1030 and 920/510 before that). Many long course races and countless multipart training sessions, no problem

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Until Apple can figure out how to get more than 24 hours of battery life out of their watches they are non starter for me. From an endurance sport standpoint that Apple Watch is not even in the same ballpark as my Garmin 935. The Garmin battery lasts a week or more, Garmin connect has made significant improvements in almost being able to eliminate the need for a platform such as TrainingPeaks. I have had the 520 for years and it may the best product of anything I have owned from Garmin, it just works.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
I almost never have issues with Garmin products. My 920xt works every time I use and the only issues I have with the edge 810 is that it sometimes drops live track.

I knew this was going to be one of the first responses. Yes, the 920xt works (except for the altimeter, which is hopelessly plagued on the hardware side of things) but it also doesn't do any cool shit. Do you still have a Blackberry? The Blackberry is the 920xt, and the Blackberry died because they couldn't adapt the software and the hardware for the modern era. Same thing with Garmin.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
It also has a major issue and that’s battery life.
This
Let me know when apple devices can go a week between charges. Until then, it's a non-starter as a regular training device.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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What "cool shit" do you want your head unit to do? I'd say the best units are the ones that don't do any cool shit, they just work and give the data you want. Cool shit is what your phone is for.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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My 820 sucks, the touch screen is terrible, the mapping is useless, and the battery life isn't good. In fact, I think the 800 I still have was better aside from having to plug it into the computer to download a ride. And lately, I have to pair and unpair the unit to get it to download.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
I almost never have issues with Garmin products. My 920xt works every time I use and the only issues I have with the edge 810 is that it sometimes drops live track.


I knew this was going to be one of the first responses. Yes, the 920xt works (except for the altimeter, which is hopelessly plagued on the hardware side of things) but it also doesn't do any cool shit. Do you still have a Blackberry? The Blackberry is the 920xt, and the Blackberry died because they couldn't adapt the software and the hardware for the modern era. Same thing with Garmin.

I'm not sure what I'm missing, but I'm pretty old school. My 920xt works flawlessly, and in coastal Florida who gives a rat's ass about the altimeter? I would buy another before getting a 935 for which I've heard too many people bitching. When the battery life on my Garmin 500 started to go, I just bought another Garmin 500. It's effing bombproof! These products may be old, but the law of diminishing marginal returns applies to the utility of "cool shit" as much as anything else.

But competition is a good thing, so I'm all for alternatives. My dream watch is the Garmin 920 without half the vertical profile.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [ In reply to ]
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910. Vector. 735. 935. Other than altimeter they've been pretty much bulletproof for me. They may not do cool stuff but they do everything I want them to do (and then some).
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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My issue with Garmin is that if you went back to your 510 I bet it would be disappointing. Garmin like Apple has a real habit of placing artificial shelf lifes of their products even though the products should work fine.

My 310xt worked brilliantly for years but gradually stopped picking up satellites until it became a real pain to use. My understanding is that is 100% a firm ware issue with Garmin deciding to stop supporting the watch. Similar situation with my Vivioactive which is only 3-4 years old. It works great but Garmin recently killed the only version of Garmin IQ which it can run. As the watch requires IQ to increases it now crashes constantly.

I have yet to find a product that Garmin stands behind for more than about 5 years. Given the prices of the products and their durability 5 years just isn't long enough.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [ngless] [ In reply to ]
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ngless wrote:
What "cool shit" do you want your head unit to do? I'd say the best units are the ones that don't do any cool shit, they just work and give the data you want. Cool shit is what your phone is for.

Yeah exactly. I don’t need my devices to do anymore than they already do. I can get all the data I need.

Like I said, the new Apple Watch is awesome. I think it’s amazing and it shows you where they are going in the next 5-10 years.

But I don’t see what it’s doing that will dramatically improve any data that I’m already getting.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [ngless] [ In reply to ]
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ngless wrote:
What "cool shit" do you want your head unit to do? I'd say the best units are the ones that don't do any cool shit, they just work and give the data you want. Cool shit is what your phone is for.

Among many other things, like routing / courses, the 920xt cannot tell me when a car is behind me. Ironically, the Garmin Varia radar works impeccably and I consider it the third most important safety feature on my bike setup after my brakes and my helmet. Maybe it will soon work with the Apple Watch? Not holding my breath
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Garmin 1000 user. Never had a problem, it just works. No interest in an Apple watch. I don't like wearing watches.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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My edge 520 drove me nuts this fall and spring but has settled down now.

I got a 3 series apple watch earlier this year because it was billed as a watch that could play music, provide gps & take calls all during a run.

Wearing it against my garmin it usually came in 10% higher in distance on a route where the distance was a given, the music would shut off whenever I ran past a wifi network because it would try to connect to stream and then the touch screen wouldn't work when I tried to turn it back on due to me sweating so much (there are no buttons).... So now when I run I don't even bother starting an activity and have to place it in airplane mode with the bluetooth on so I can listen to music which means it can't take a phone call. So essentially it's just a glorified wireless MP3 player.

It's not even in the same ball park as a 920xt.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
I already have the Wahoo Bolt thing, and while I haven't used it much, I don't think the Wahoo OS is sufficiently robust to allow for the advanced uses we should all have for these very expensive devices. At $500, these things should work as well as your phone and do basically what your phone can do, but better, because it is purpose built for the specific sports use case.

Why is this not a reality yet? I think it's about to be...I think (and hope) we will within the next year witness a sharp reversal in Garmin's share of multi-sport tech wearables and cycling devices. My sense is that commodity hardware products can and should proliferate around a unified Android OS tailored for sports tech (as they do in phones) and that software developers (like XERT, Strava, etc.) can and should develop products for Android OS and for iOS.

You're in for a surprise.

https://joshua0.dreamwidth.org/65779.html

TL;DR "The Wahoo ELEMNT and Wahoo ELEMNT BOLT run Android inside, on a MediaTek SoC. And not just any Android, but a truly archaic version."
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I have a garmin 235 for running and wahoo elemnt bolt for cycling. Both do everything I want them to and are reliable.

Maybe user error is your issue?
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [ridenfish39] [ In reply to ]
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ridenfish39 wrote:
My 820 sucks, the touch screen is terrible, the mapping is useless, and the battery life isn't good. In fact, I think the 800 I still have was better aside from having to plug it into the computer to download a ride. And lately, I have to pair and unpair the unit to get it to download.

How much do you actually use the touch screen while riding. After I hit start on my 810, I don’t touch the computer again till the end of the ride.

Mapping isn’t the greatest, but I also don’t ever use mapping to get around. I’m sure it’s helpful if you travel and ride a ton but most rides are where I live and I can easily get back to the house no matter where I go.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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If you think about all current sports technology, smart trainers, power meters, tracking softwares, riding apps, anything, Garmin is the least of my worries.

I have been a garmin user since 2008 with the Forerunner 305 and overall their issues are minor. I work in sales various softwares and technology for my industry and Garmins occasional issues are nothing in the grand scheme of things. They are highly reliable in comparison to other tech development companies.

I am not seeing any demise at all. Not sure if I took troll bait, but this is not a controversial area in my experience.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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My only complaint with Garmin is their HR monitors. I can't get a reliable one. The Run chest pod is the most reliable and current one I am using. 920 is great and no problems with my 520. I won't buy and Apple product because of you crazy cult followers. You all scare me and I don't want to be one of you.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Serious question - What is it that you are thinking that the Apple Watch will be able to do when functioning as a "bike computer"? My understanding, and experience from owning the Apple Watch 3 for two weeks, was that the watch was able to do the following:
1 - record time and distance via GPS
2 - record heart rate via internal sensor
3 - run Strava app in watch to upload

However the watch was not able to:
1 - No ANT+ signal data
2 - No Power data
3 - No cadence/speed sensor data
4 - No advance metrics (VO2 Max, running dynamics, cycling dynamics, etc)

It seemed to me that the Apple Watch is a great smart watch and works for the Yoga and Burn Bootcamp crowd. But it fails miserably as a true sports watch. I returned my series 3 and upgraded to the lastest Fenix 5. It was worked well for me.
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I would agree that there isn't a silver bullet in Garmin's inventory.

Yes my 920xt Altimeter bust and I got through 3 Garmin HRM straps in 2 years (they are so cr*p and expensive). My Edge 520 has been excellent (in the dry), and to get through a 405km brevet ride I just connected a small powerbank without issue. 'Back-up' was my 920 which I had to turn off after 11h due to low battery(!). I've just bought a 735xt, as I don't need 14h-plus battery for Ironman, and by turning off the optical wrist HR, it should last a lot longer anyway. Plus it doesn't have a barometric altimeter to go wrong; this makes it quite small, which is a plus. When rain clogs the barometer on the Edge 520 - my 735xt takes up the 'ascent' slack! I now use a Wahoo Tickr HRM.

IMHO Polar makes the best looking multisport watches nowadays, but they have their own software and compatibility issues.

29 years and counting
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
My 920xt works flawlessly, and in coastal Florida who gives a rat's ass about the altimeter? I would buy another before getting a 935 for which I've heard too many people bitching.

I do and I live in soflo. Because when you use WKO4, elevation is used to calculate TSS and therefore CTL, ATL, and TSB get all out of wack and its a pain to fix manually.

Also, the 920xt is fugly and I wouldn't be seen wearing that watch outside of wearing spandex. My 935 leaves my wrist for less than 8 hours a week now.

blog
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Re: The coming upheaval in the sports tech / device space -- The demise of Garmin [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
Do you still have a Blackberry? The Blackberry is the 920xt, and the Blackberry died because they couldn't adapt the software and the hardware for the modern era.

But newer Garmins such as the 935, Fenix, etc., do seem to be keeping up with the times?
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Sep 24, 18 8:14
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