I agree 100%, which is why I've made it one of my main goals this OS to find a saddle that allows me to rotate my hips forward more, and stay there comfortably. I just had a fitting for a new saddle last week (Dash). I don't know if this is the answer, but it's a better answer than what I was previously riding. So far, as a result of improved hip rotation, I've been able to raise the saddle 5mm, move the aerobar extensions forward 10mm, and remove 5mm of spacers. All while being more comfortable than my previous saddle/position.

Ok.

I was expecting more of a punchline... Like how to go about picking the right saddle, or what makes the right saddle.... Or something along those lines.....

I feel unfulfilled.

It's a timely post for me, as I configure my first tri specific bike. I currently have an ism saddle, and it's fine, but I have a feeling something could be better.

Couldn’t agree more but a wheel is more objective whereas saddle selection is more subjective. Tell me the fastest saddle for me. I still don’t know after nearly 15 years.

Rotation in which direction? Specifically for Triathlon, or for producing maximum wattage?

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Whatever is fastest over the course of the distance you choose to race

I must say I was hyper impressed with the service you released for virtual fitting with a camera stand etc., but the reality is that you need to ship half a dozen saddles to your client as well, and then agree to flash fit each saddle to your client remotely. I see the service you are offering, combined with a robust provision of and assessment of saddles for the client, as a service worth over $1K, if not over $2k.

These folks are spending a $1k premium on these whale wheels and obsessing over all this other bs when the most important two things, which are interactive with each other, on a time trial bicycle, are the saddle and the fit on that saddle.

i agree with your premise (although i suspect you pretty much plucked random numbers out of nothing).

however wheel speed is fairly much absolute (aside from tyre, frame and rider interaction) whereas saddles are very personal. if someone could come up with a reliable way of determining which saddle is best for me personally, i would be all over it. for those of us in further flung locations its very difficult to even try sitting on other saddles, letalone a decent ride or a comparative test.

is anything on a bike (or elsewhere in tri) more individual than saddles?

as it is, how much value is there in a forum thread where all anyone can do is say what they have found to work for them which even in the probably relatively rare case that they have determined what is actually best for them is unlikely to be the best for me? i guess you could come up with a statistically more favoured saddle...

This is not something that I do. You're talking to a person who will not ride a bicycle without a power meter on it, whether it's a fat bike, a plus bike, an XC bike, a gravel bike, a road bike, or a TT bike. So those numbers have backing, I assure you. The 20W to 30W I am talking about are real and I have the data to prove it

Yeah, I agree, and I'm trying to figure out exactly how to do just that. On the other hand, I have found one saddle dominates my fits more than any other over the last 10 months. Man or woman, doesn't matter, they almost all choose the same saddle, the ISM PN 3.0.

Now, what we all believe is we're looking for anterior pelvic rotation, and I don't think I'd fool anyone if I tried to argue otherwise. However, if we agree with Slowman that we should observe and model those who are most successful, then I would be remiss if I didn't take note that every male World Time Trial Champion since, well, forever, had posteriorly rotated pelvises. There was one exception, but only one. Many of those who are considered the uber bikers of triathlon also posteriorly rotated. Should we, therefore, ask ourselves if anterior rotation is what we should all be trying to achieve? Is it really the epitome of fit it's made out to be? Sure, athlete's look great when anteriorly rotated, but what evidence is out there that tells us it's best?

I think we should also look at the history of the aero position, and understand when athletes began trying to achieve anteriorly rotated pelvises. It's a fairly recent phenomenon, actually. I would argue there was one specific athlete who looked so good in aero, that he became the "P3" of aero positions - Dave Zabriske. Everyone wants to look like Dave and, while Dave was certainly a good Time Trialist, I would argue he was never great when compared to his peers at their best. Many would be surprised to know DZ never even sniffed a World's TT podium. The very best don't actually look all that great in aero, but that doesn't keep them from being the best.

I only mention all of this because saddle comfort really became a big issue when athlete's began trying to achieve anterior rotated positions. Posterior rotated, not as much. I'm just trying to play Devil's Advocate a bit; I know why pro cyclists prefer posterior rotated TT positions. One only take a brief look at my "portfolio" to know I'm all about anterior rotation. That doesn't keep me from asking if it's really what's best, though, because history might be telling us the most powerful position is just the opposite.

Also, men have no idea what women feel on saddles. If we did, we wouldn't ride bikes.

Unfortunately, I'll be unable to continue this discussion over the next 36 hours or so, but I do believe your premise is correct that performance is likely restricted more by poor saddle choice than any other piece of equipment. And, yeah, even I went to sleep on the aero wheel thread, though some of the topics could be interesting if it didn't devolve into a "my PhD is bigger than yours" contest.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Kiley, maybe their isn’t a thread on this because its obvious to everyone? The body makes up the majority of drag (aero) and the how you sit on the saddle affects power production and drag...of coarse it’s the single biggest piece.

I am calling the bullshit rule here. When I started triathlons, Brooks Pro was about the only saddle choice with real leather chamois. shorts. Everyone got bad saddle sores, like real bad. Now i just have two saddles Arione for the road and Cobb for the TT. You can ride a zillion miles on those two saddles. Between the saddle choices and modern chamois I have about 10% of the problems of yore. Get over it.... 20 hours in the saddle a week and you get sores, 80 miles a week on the run and your feet hurt.

Do they all sit in roughly the same spot on that saddle? Or are some out on the nose with others further back?

Let’s say I believe you (and you’re smarter than me and always post insightful comments, so no disrespect meant)

But I go kind of fast, feel comfortable and have a saddle that I’ve always ridden and was also my first saddle many years ago

You think I can really generate +20-30w (which would be at or higher than road bike) by getting s better saddle?

I’m so exited I’d probably pay for this service!!l

I'll agree to the premise. I have tried many saddles for my tri bike. 20-30 watts over a couple of hours is possible. Over short distances not so much.
I wish I'd had the option of doing a bike fit with 10 saddles that could be changed quickly.
I've settled on a dash strike for now. But at €100-€300 for each saddle and waiting for them to arrive in the mail I've had a long process.
Has anyone tried the bi-saddle adjustable thing?

I'll add that I believe it is possible to rotate your pelvis "too" much. I know for me that when I rotate my pelvis as far as I can possibly go and stay there for an extended period of time, it puts a lot of strain on my lower back. After about 2 hours in that position, my lower back hurts like hell. So for me, it's been finding that happy medium posture in order to hold the position for the duration.

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Further to Jims points - I see it as less about the orientation of rotation and more about tension. If your position causes tension at your hips there is a risk of power loss. A variety of factors influence this, but just on saddles - commonly for triathletes it's a case of discomfort on the nose (of the saddle) so they rotate away from it - creating tension.

It is usually very clear with 3D software when the saddle has an impact on tension at the hips - the knee track improves massively. Which will be accompanied by better reported comfort from the rider. I don't recall seeing a saddle that was uncomfortable have a positive impact on any of the motion data.

I switched from the ISM race saddle to the Bi-saddle and couldn’t be happier. For me it’s much more comfortable because it’s customizable and I’ve had zero saddle sores since switching earlier this season.

No, if what you are saying is true and accurate, then you have probably already extra that extra 20-30w, but if you want to test go a saddle that doesn’t work well and you will likely see a 20-30w drop.

if you think it's obvious to everyone you clearly haven't been watching any sort of triathlon for a while.

of course; there's always a "too much." you perching your butt to the extreme will obviously affect other areas of your fit that subsequently won't accommodate your tense body position.

Agreed, if it's so obvious, why are 80+% of triathletes (that number may even apply to pros, and cycling pros) riding the wrong saddle on their TT bikes? If it's obvious, I guess people aren't doing much about it, maybe because it's just too costly to test enough saddles.

As to Jim's post, I agree that the PN3.0 has most people covered, and for those with very sensitive nerves along the ischial tuberosity, a heavily cushioned version of the same type of saddle typically does the trick. So, that means I agree that saddles aren't quite as "personal" as some folks make them out to be. I believe that most people just haven't tried enough saddles. They probably choose based on aesthetics and what peers are riding. If people could test 25+ saddles in a blind test for extended periods of time and provide perceptual feedback that is recorded, I am betting you would see a trend towards a very few number of saddles. Now, in my view, the single saddle that meets 95% of riders' needs doesn't currently exist. But, I have feeling it will soon, and from a brand not currently producing saddles.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Fully agree.

Finding the right saddle, so one doesn't wiggle like a morning worm thereby robbing the rider of watts, is worth lots.

In my experience, I found a 5 - 8% improvement of power (15 to 20 watts) when I found comfort on the bike, of which the saddle was probably the most important component.

And, agree, I too am losing interest of what aero wheel is the most aero. I have a Jet9 and JetDisc (23mm rim version) and I can't see / estimate if there would be any significant delta to upgrading to more recent aero wheels.

Same here. Best saddle I've ever worked with. It's kinda crazy.

As far as Kiley's premise, yeah... maybe. I think people are sensitive to different things. I rode thousands of miles fully rotated forward on a standard Selle Italia SLR, firm with no cut out. I was centered right on my perineum. It was fine. When the ISMs came along I was happier but my position didn't change, nor did my power. I freikin' hate riding in cheap shorts though.

As far as rotation, there are definitely some thing we do not yet know. I try to fit / coerce aerobar riders to rotate forward, but there certainly seems to be a small percentage of riders who just never will.... and a good portion of those are world class and world champions. I just can't quite wrap my head around emulating these riders, as anterior rotation so clearly works for the vast majority. I would be more inclined to work with enough posterior riders to gain some more insight, as I know you have. I am curious exactly how many you have tried to fit with anterior rotation unsuccessfully?

Agreed this certainly isn't new information. Agreed saddle is the most important piece of equipment. What so many people miss though in the saddle conversation is your ability to sit on the saddle. I know that sounds funny but most people have tight something or other, disfunction, or compensation patterns that cause them to think they're sitting square and even and they really are not even close.

When I was a bike fitter we coached so many people on working off the bike to be able to sit on the saddle correctly - Agers to pros alike. The saddle battle is great but it sometimes amounts to putting the band aid where the blood drips not on the wound.

Are you able to offer more info about this?