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The Pubes test
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Here is the test, do the trainerroad ramp test in aero, then a few days later, or whenever your ready do the ramp test again but this time sitting up. and post the results here. I will create a spreadsheet and lets see what average is. I think a lot of people will be surprised at the differnece.
If you don't know about the ramp test its TR new test, It is a million times less painful than the 20 min, I could do one twice in a day and get decently accurate results I would guess.

I call it the Pubes test because I know he has, or had the same problem I am trying to fix lost tons of power in tt.

I did the ramp test last saturday I was 268 watts ftp in areo, I have a half iron tomorrow so i wont be able to test till later next week but I bet i can get 320 sitting up...
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Re: The Pubes test [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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You’re on the wrong saddle

If your power in aero is lower by 10W or more than your power in your gravel, MTB, or road position, you’re on the wrong saddle. Simple as that.
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Re: The Pubes test [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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i know i thought I maybe had it right around when you figured it out but I haven't got it yet.... you gave me hope though.
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Re: The Pubes test [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
You’re on the wrong saddle

If your power in aero is lower by 10W or more than your power in your gravel, MTB, or road position, you’re on the wrong saddle. Simple as that.
OK I'll bite. Do you have any more details than that? I'm over 60w less and always have been.
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Re: The Pubes test [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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In IMTalk e612 of 4/9/18 Cam Wurf was saying something like he loves riding his road bike and does just that in favor of TT aside from one key session a week, the reason being he generates much more power with much more comfort.

I'm ok with pushing hard in aero, but not for long if it's toward my ftp. I've been doing most of my training inside in aero the last ~3 years, whether intervals or 4.5hr easy TR rides, and my race results are still improving, though I'm pretty sure my actual FTP was higher when I started. So it's possible improvement is due to better endurance and getting more aerodynamic in races.
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Re: The Pubes test [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
You’re on the wrong saddle

If your power in aero is lower by 10W or more than your power in your gravel, MTB, or road position, you’re on the wrong saddle. Simple as that.

Maybe you should add a second test for elbow width. At some point it is likely to restrict breathing, but the frontal area reduction can be big.

This does really hit on the all important drag vs output issue. Since the point of testing is fixing a problem, it would be interesting to consider fine tuning a position using some of the new "on bike" aero devices and the Pubes test.
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Re: The Pubes test [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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Can you summarize this test? I'm not on TR, and I hate indoor workouts.... But, I have an uninterrupted 10mile stretch of nearly level road where I do my weekly 2x20s.
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Re: The Pubes test [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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What’s the make up of this new test?
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Re: The Pubes test [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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I don't mean this in a combative way I promise...but why do you or anyone need to test this and make a spread sheet?

It's pretty common knowledge that your watts will be higher sitting up than in the aero position. This is especially true indoors on a static trainer.
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Re: The Pubes test [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
You’re on the wrong saddle

I've tried a few saddles. Some hurt and some don't, but the effect on my power output is nil.

The same goes for other changes so long as I don't mess with the torso angle or saddle height. I don't race anything longer than a 40k though.

Power loss in aero is ~12% at near FTP levels. At higher intensity the loss is greater.
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Re: The Pubes test [logella] [ In reply to ]
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Resistance slightly increases every minute. Go until you can't go anymore. Hence the term "ramp".
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Re: The Pubes test [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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What is the point of your test???

If someone is similar or better in aero then they are an big outlier.

going into the aero position is always a loss of power for a gain of speed due to lower air resistance. why do you think you don't ride aero uphill.

Aero position
Takes about lung capacity.
Takes away wt transfer to the pedals.
Takes away ability to balance easier on the pedals.
Takes away hip angle to utilize all leg muscle groups.

You may want to try moving your bike position closer to a road position if you suffer on the bars. as power is always going to be more important then aero.

If you can't produce a higher power to go above 30 km per hr there is no resistance anyways.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: The Pubes test [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
You’re on the wrong saddle

If your power in aero is lower by 10W or more than your power in your gravel, MTB, or road position, you’re on the wrong saddle. Simple as that.

or the saddle is at the wrong angle... though, it takes the right saddle to ride at the right angle...

___________________________________
milesthedog on strava
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Re: The Pubes test [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Triathletetoth wrote:
If you can't produce a higher power to go above 30 km per hr there is no resistance anyways.

I can’t tell what you’re trying to say, but perhaps you should rephrase this, because it sounds like you’re claiming there is no aero resistance unless you’re going over 30km/h.
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Re: The Pubes test [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Triathletetoth wrote:
What is the point of your test???

If someone is similar or better in aero then they are an big outlier.

going into the aero position is always a loss of power for a gain of speed due to lower air resistance. why do you think you don't ride aero uphill.

Aero position
Takes about lung capacity.
Takes away wt transfer to the pedals.
Takes away ability to balance easier on the pedals.
Takes away hip angle to utilize all leg muscle groups.

You may want to try moving your bike position closer to a road position if you suffer on the bars. as power is always going to be more important then aero.

If you can't produce a higher power to go above 30 km per hr there is no resistance anyways.

Not sure I agree with that.
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Re: The Pubes test [jpay] [ In reply to ]
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I had a client set up in store. $400 bad set up in tour de France TT pro rider set up. cervelo p5 with top end everything.

90 km Bike course does 140 Watts and very slow like 3:44 minutes.

Change it up so he can produce 170 - 180 watts holding and most importantly comfortable for 3 plus hours so his back and hip are not killing him.

Does 3:19 .

I have 100 more clients with the same story. one proper fit to be able to product more power and 90 km TT goes 20-30 minutes faster.

if you can't product power first ( step 1 ) you never get to go fast no matter what else is involved.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: The Pubes test [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it is the saddle most of the time. I don't think it is any one thing, but if it was,, I'd argue for crank length. I actually think it is a combination of things, including:

1&2 Crank length and too much drop - poor pedaling biomechanics
3&4 - Too narrow or too tight in cockpit - impinged breathing
5 - Insufficient time - Power comes up over time
6 - Posture, saddle discomfort, fighting the saddle etc - you've got to have saddle that reasonably comfortably allows for a full forward pelvic tilt.
And maybe 7 for some - Different devices measuring power at different locations on the bike

For me, I was absolutely equal from road to tri, after spending 20,000 miles riding aero over a few years. Extreme perhaps, but I think it is disingenous to claim that power will always be better while sitting up. It really does improve over time.

When attending to the above list, I have had very good success getting power with 3% going from road to tri. I really don't accept greater than a 5% delta with those I coach.

When I used to ride aero a lot, at a fixed load, I would always feel better when dropping down into the aerobars. With fit clients, they almost always have an opposite experience prior to being fit. Often, we are able to reverse that situation in the context of a 2 hour fit. Not always, but often. Eyes go wide as they lean over into aero and report that same load now feels easier. This is really the premise behind 100 degrees of hip angle in the FIST process.... lower or higher isn't as powerful. FIST is a great process, and the premise of a very narrow range of hip angles being the most powerful has proven true for me over several thousand fits. Crank length really ties the room together though, and this is something I have learned on my own over the last few years.


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Re: The Pubes test [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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Re: The Pubes test [captain-tri] [ In reply to ]
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There is very little air résistance at 30 km/ hr. ( unless you into a head wind of course).

e.g.
a rider at 30 km/ hr is around 2 watts / kg in a vacuum type setting. ( there are a few other variables, but not many that move the numbers to much).
75 kg rider needs to hold a steady 150 watts.
a rider at 36 km/hr is around 3 watts/ kg
75 kg rider needs 225.
a rider at 40 km/ hr is around 4 watts/kg
75 kg need 300 watts.

so on a 40 km TT one rider does 1:20 at 150 watts the next guy to do a 1:06:40 next to add 50% to there power to do . to rider a 1:00 ( only 6:40 faster) you need to add 33.3% for an 11% improvement in time.

hence you need more power then aero to go faster.

PO PO POWER makes you go. ( especially once you have a tail wind and up hill when there is no wind)

Think of this a course like whistler ( no aero resistance up hill ( 75% of ride time, downhill so fast you don't pedal (20% ride time) flats in aero 5% ride time. you need power not to be aero.
FOCUS ON POWER

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: The Pubes test [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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the ramp test would be hard to do outside, it basically bumps you up i think 15 watts every minute until you stop pedaling :) then it takes that wattage and multiples it by .77 or something. but basically any ftp test would do. I was just suggesting the ramp because it is a tone less painful than the 20 min.
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Re: The Pubes test [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Triathletetoth wrote:
What is the point of your test???

If someone is similar or better in aero then they are an big outlier.

going into the aero position is always a loss of power for a gain of speed due to lower air resistance. why do you think you don't ride aero uphill.

Aero position
Takes about lung capacity.
Takes away wt transfer to the pedals.
Takes away ability to balance easier on the pedals.
Takes away hip angle to utilize all leg muscle groups.

You may want to try moving your bike position closer to a road position if you suffer on the bars. as power is always going to be more important then aero.

If you can't produce a higher power to go above 30 km per hr there is no resistance anyways.


The point of the test is this- No point :) it's just for fun and I am a bit curious to see how we all compare to the "norm" My bike fit is areodynamic enough to for sure offset the loss of watts, I like most people am just trying to see if i can get the difference closer and till stay super aero. Like Kileya has. hoepfully he will test and we can see how close he is. But really this is just me goofing around trying to find entertaining stuff for us to read and post about. I love slowtwitch.
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Re: The Pubes test [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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I see.
PARTY ON!

You should actually try to get less aero but produce more power and work from there. you are looking at it back wards. if you can lift you bars up and hold 220 watts in place of 200 watts ( and be able to breath easier) you will be faster over a given distance then the amount of air pressure that would slow you down.

Also most people that drop there bars to get lower just push themselves up with the shoulder so they can breath so they are actually the exact same position just working harder and more uncomfortable (neck strain).

Good luck.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: The Pubes test [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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I don't see why that will be hard to do outside. Like I said... I have a 10 mile stretch of nearly dead flat road with a nice shoulder. That's where I do my weekly 2x20s. I can easily hit and hold a fixed target to within +/-2 watts for that 20 minutes. I do 4 20 watt steps as my normal warmup.

I found another description that said each step is 6% of current ftp, every minute. New ftp = 75% of highest completed ramp step.
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Re: The Pubes test [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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That ramp test seems all fine and dandy until the last three or four. All is good then 460 becomes 475 or whatever and then life is suddenly miserable. I don’t think I could push through the end of this test on the road.
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Re: The Pubes test [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
I don't see why that will be hard to do outside. Like I said... I have a 10 mile stretch of nearly dead flat road with a nice shoulder. That's where I do my weekly 2x20s. I can easily hit and hold a fixed target to within +/-2 watts for that 20 minutes. I do 4 20 watt steps as my normal warmup.

I found another description that said each step is 6% of current ftp, every minute. New ftp = 75% of highest completed ramp step.


seems like any test you can repeat would be fine right?
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