You are correct.

The VAST majority of runners have no issues with these shoes. I have no doubt that they aren't for le Wolf, but just because they don't work for him doesn't negate the fact that they are phenomenal for the majority of runners without his injury issues.

Trust me, I did not want to love these shoes. I've never used Nikes. In the past 1.5 years since trying them (and training in Peg Turbos 1 & 2) I've never been faster, healthier and more consistent.

These are facts you don't accept.

I have turned my ankle running on flat road before

But have no problem with the 4% and next

Am also faster with both of them at all speeds
I’ll be buying the alpha fly when it comes out

I think there are two facts. There are other shoes better for you with your injury issues / biomechanics and the fact that these Nikes are better and faster for the vast majority of runners. Both are true.

I bought them 2 years ago.

Used them regularly until they hurt me.

I still use them approximatively once or twice per month, for short fast run, taking care to use them with mid-foot strike. Because if heel strike, I feel the torsion of the foot.
Using them regularly, it give me the opportunity to compare them regularly to many other shoes.
They are efficient, no question about that.
But, by far, they are the more unstable shoe I ever run during these 2 years. For me, at least.
And not only for me. Ask Dan about them. Read what Dan wrote about them. And what other people wrote on this forum.

But it is ok if it work for you. I'm not saying they are evil :-)
They work for some peoples. No question about that.

Personally I gave up on them.
Tried the Next on treadmill, twice. A bit better, but not enough to spend 270 whatever

I'm sure I will find another shoe with equivalent efficiency, but stable enough for me to use it regularly.
I'm very happy many other brands deliver / plan to deliver soft cushioned efficient shoes, with similar geometry (but hopefully some material on the medial side). Not going to restate the list again.

 

"I think there are two facts. There are other shoes better for you with your injury issues / biomechanics and the fact that these Nikes are better and faster for the vast majority of runners. Both are true."

I would say 3 facts :

1) Other shoes are better for me : yes

2) VF4% are faster than older models if you can use them : yes
(not sure it is for the majority of runners. The majority of the peoples using them, of course. If you can use them, they are more efficient than traditional models, no doubt)

3) VF/Next/Alphafly are better than other brands "new generations" models (such as Saucony Endorphin Pro, NB Racer, ...) : no evidence at this point.

On point 3 I promise you that those who have run in them are producing better times. I'm done commenting on that though.

I really don't like the look of the open airpod but I guess it's good for marketing. I'm looking forward to the new tongue, it looks like the flyknit where it's all stitched together. The Next% tongue is super annoying in triathlon.

 
You have some comparaison with Endorphin Pro, NB Racer, Skechers Speed Elite, new unreleased Hoka, new unreleased ASICS, new unreleased Adidas ?

Or still comparing with old models, like 2 or 3 years ago ?

Read again my point 3

I'm talking about comparing with "new generation" shoes from other brands.
Using similar geometry, similar foams, similar plates...

We are not in 2017, 2018 or 2019 anymore. The "better time" are compared to older shoes. it is old story, now.

Nike HAD an advantage. Sure. I know that, everybody know that.
Is it still there ?
No evidence.

NDA and I haven't run in all but lets say yes from what I've seen and heard.

Well, I punched in my number, we'll see when they drop. By widely available I expect these to be $300+ and I'll pass and buy a bottle of bourbon.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

We're about to find out. Most likely yes. Nike has solved shoes, much like Cervelo solved bike frames or Giro solved aero helmets.

The thing is, it's all been done before by other companies already... the foam, the plates, the stack height... Nike was just the first to do it right. It's also obvious who else was doing things somewhat right when looking at the NYT chart and data. Everyone else was just plain wrong.

Finally, yes other companies are trying to catch up, but so is Nike... the 4% shoes are probably 5 years old in their R&D pipeline, the Next% 3 years, the Alphafly 2 years... they probably already have the next generation shoe off the drawing board and onto people's feet as prototypes. The other companies are 2-5 years behind.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

This. I bought them on a flyer, knowing they were returnable at my awesome local running store. As a Hoka runner at the time, I thought no way these are worth the money, stack is wrong, look goofy, tread is marginal blah blah blah. Boy was I wrong- they were absolute rockets even compared to other race shoes. And the 4% is better.

Most of rabid anti-VFers seem to hit every thread over and over, but I have not seen any cogent arguments other that not liking them or wanting to pay for them, so nobody else can either.

Let's see what serious comparison between Alphafly and, for exemple, Saucony Endorphin Pro, have to say.

It will be interesting to get real data.

Anyone speculating on pricing for the Alphafly? It seems as the 4%, 4% flyknit and Next% came out they all slotted into the $250 price of the previous generation. Will the Alphafly be more - $300?

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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Lol gosh the mental gymnastics that has been going on with the next% and alpha fly is crazy. There are already running shoes out there have air injected into certain sections of the sole. This isn’t new. If they didn’t leave them open where they are people wouldn’t even notice.

Equally there are already shoes with carbon fiber plates. Carbon Fiber is just a Stronger plastic.

Nike puts all these things together and designs a great shoe and it’s now it’s not a shoe because it’s using stuff that has been in other shoes for years?

Can you cite a reference or source for this claim ? (genuine question)

1) in the last 3 years, these are the only shoes who injured me. Because of lack of stability. I use them once or twice a month, and each time I heel strike I feel the torsion.
I ran with more than a dozen of other shoes since I bough them, and use them, none are so unstable.
For me, these are the most unstable shoes I have ever run.

2) Several other peoples mentioned in this forum being injured by this shoes (if you are a regular reader you probably saw that also) because they found them VERY unstable

3) Dan himself mentioned he found them very unstable.

4) if you have a pair, look at them : there is no medial side

5) if you have a pair, put them, relax, and you will fell your feet falling on the medial side

I think it's hilarious at this point that this guy says "facts" and claims he is "scientist" in every single post then uses his own, singular anecdote as a fact. And fails to recognize why this is wrong.

I get the point that we don't know how new shoes will stack up, we will find out, but the obvious point was already made several times. I've hid his posts at this point as they're not contributing anything new or useful to the conversation anymore.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Before I hide...

1)Anecdote
2)Anecdote
3)Anecdote
4)Opinion
5)Anecdote

How about trying to prove this fact by finding that the thousands of runners who have been using the VF over the last 3 years have had a pandemic of running injuries and then maybe you can claim it as a fact but right now it isn't, mr. scientist.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

OK

VF is stable
The world is flat
The world was created by god in 6 days (few weeks ago)

Say hello to Mickey and Minnie for me

Well here is a fact. I have been running in the VaporFly since the beginning. OGs, FlyKnit, and now Next%. I have over 600 miles on them combined and I am still alive. Are they a bit awkward to walk in? Sure. Do I feel like I am about to fall over because they are so unstable? NO! Do I love running in them? Oh hell yes.

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Twitter - Instagram

Dude, cool it. We get it, you don't like the shoe. That's ok. But we don't need to hear about it anymore! Stop spoiling the thread about new things coming out by an innovative company that makes racing shoes better than anyone else better than the planet right now.

Back to normal readings folks. Anyone have updates/news about the exact release date for these, the new sets of spikes that are coming out, or the race flats that might be coming out?