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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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It was a joke, maybe not a very good one. Hopefully someone will explain it and bail me out, having to explain your own joke makes it even worse :-)



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]
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One thing I noticed on the coverage last night was that he doesn't always hold onto the bars. For most of the flat stretch at the end he held his hands together above the bars. You could see the bar ends below his hands.
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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I thought it was pretty funny... But I'm definitely not gonna bail you out on it. :)

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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I am ignorant of your reference. I just wonder what his relative seat angle is. The Hincapie pic show much the same thing. I'm surprised more of these riders don't use modified saddles with more of the nose cut off so they can get more of the saddle under their butt. They obviously want to ride more forward or they would not be teetering off the end of the saddles.

Chad


Many TTers have the truncated saddle. Landis wants to ride steeper than anyone else, it appears: his butt looks like it is 6" further forward than Hincapie's. UCI rules say you can't have your aerobar extensions too far forward, and I think that's why his are tilted up.

As for the "Brokeback Mountain" reference: you don't want to go there. Literally and figuratively.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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"how the heck do you sit on the last two inches of your saddle for any great length of time?"



I think part of the answer is the "length of time" aspect. It's a time trial, not a triathlon. It's a much harder and time-compressed effort. The power they're putting into the pedals cancels out some of the pressure on the butt (or sit bones or whatever). The saddle is there as a support, but it's not quite the same as in a long triathlon where you're really trying to "sit" on the saddle for an extended period.

I've got a bike set up for racing. I can't stand doing easy rides on it 'cuz the saddle is so uncomfortable. But when I'm really gettin' it, I'm hardly aware of the saddle at all.

Bob C.
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Many TTers have the truncated saddle. Landis wants to ride steeper than anyone else, it appears: his butt looks like it is 6" further forward than Hincapie's.

This is one of those things that makes it apparent how out of touch UCI is with what their riders are doing. A quick look at photos from most time trials will show that riders are sitting on the end of their saddles trying to move forward on their bars. Why doesn't somebody see this and say, "Hmmm, why are all these guys riding this way and make changes to the rules that benefit the riders? If they can prevent the Giro from having two very short stages on one day because it is too hard on the riders, why can't they see that their own rules regarding time trial positions need to be modified.

I mean, don't these guy read slowtwitch and understand the whole seat angle/open hip thing? :)

Chad
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]
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The weirdest thing about this photo for me is the fact that his chest seems to be lower than the top of his thigh?! Is he really splaying his legs at the top of the stroke or is it a trick of the camera? Surely your absolute limiter on body angle is when you can't fit your legs underneath yourself...



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [GeeForces] [ In reply to ]
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gotcha - good call



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
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I was just in the wind tunnel with him last week, and we were determined to get those bars flat, but for whatever reason this just works for him. I have to say that in the last 6 years I've been to like 20 tunnel tests of both pro and amateur athletes, roadies and triathletes, and this is the only time I've ever seen a bar position like this work for anybody. Just like the manager of the wind tunnel said, 'It wouldn't be a wind tunnel test if we didn't discover something that completely went against everything we thought we knew'...
When you say "just works for him", what does that mean? Are you saying that he is more aerodynamic in that position than in a more bars flat position? Or is he more powerful in that position and the power output overcomes the loss of aerodynamics? Please do elaborate, thanks!

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [gtingley] [ In reply to ]
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Is Arnie still coaching him? The set-up in the wind tunnel picture is certainly different than his current set-up...

Granted, it's cool that I ride with Arnie all the time.

______________________________________________
Father Kevin

http://www.churchofcycling.org
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [GeeForces] [ In reply to ]
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Heres a slightly better photo I took of the bars themselves:





The UCI rules refer to "a support" for each arm. He's got two for each. Might that be a violation?

And why the heck don't they get him some support bars that are actually horizontal? What possible benefit can these things have?

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Whatever works. More power to him. Landis has put his time in. I am rooting for Discovery riders, especially Hincapie, but Landis is a great rider and looks very strong right now. Let's see what happens. Great tour so far.
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [GeeForces] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting thread. You guys are right on re: 89 - I instantly thought of Lemond in the infamous final stage Tour TT.

Two schools of thought here. Floyd's position (and hence much of the aero thinking in the 80s-mid90s) was that you should use the arms to divert the air flow around the body. Otherwise the torso/crotch would form a pocket and create lots of drag. And it is in fact very similar to a skier's tuck.

The modern thinking is that if you can get the torso horizontal, you should allow air to pass underneath it via wider flat arms and then exit between the legs hopefully with the aid of an aero seatpost. This allows the flow to essentially "fill in" the vacuum that might otherwise form behind your butt (no brokeback mountain comments). That vacuum causes drag. So Hincapie's "tube" is actually small if you consider that air flows through his arms and underneath his torso. Obree's "superman" position was an extreme version of this.

I wouldn't necessarily knock Landis' position until you try it. If you aren't real low in the front, and hence very flat torso-wise, the "mantis" might make you more aero than flat wide arms.

Floyd's torso is pretty flat so you could argue that he should adopt the flat arms. But you have to think that he was tested in the tunnel while only varying forearm angle, and this one showed the least drag. I highly doubt it was picked based on comfort or power.

Food for thought? Scott dh bars anyone?


TK
ttbikefit.com
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]
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This is of Tyler, circa 2000. Not exactly the same, but forearms are more up than usual, and hands are sort of blocking the head. Not as extreme as Landis, but similar. Tyler obviously didn't like something about this position because he didn't ever use it, to my knowledge, but there must have been something to it.


Geoffrey Nenninger
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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While you were in Iraq a movie named "Brokeback Mountain" was released. Subject is gay cowboys. Nominated for Oscars.

HH

Oh, I have not seen it.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]
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I have to say that I always laugh when these discussions come up and everyone starts making comments with respect to tunnels of air and positioning of chest v. thigh and angle of his extended leg, etc etc...in the end, it works for him, he is fast and who really cares. We are quick to judge and over analyze things when in the end all that matters is whether you get from point A to point B faster than the other guy. Even if Landis was a few seconds faster because he dropped his forearm 2.35436 inches and created a 23.65322 degree angle between his elbow and the plane of the earth (of course factoring in the circumference of the earth to ensure a perfect angle)...if he still beats the next guy, why does it matter? Can someone please tell me?

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Good athletes train when they want to, great athletes train when they don't......

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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]
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There is nothing wrong with his position here, except the UCI rule that doesn't allow him to jack his saddle farther foreward. I rode this exact same position in the late 80's, because it made sense to me to pinch off the front profile to the wind. No wind tunnel tests, just common sense, that if you show the head of a pin, compared to the base of it, you will be more aero. What you give up in this position is leverage pulling on the bars. Now some riders have a nice high cadence and don't really use that leverage, so they don't miss it. And if you are more aero, then you don't need as many watts to go as fast. Others need to have that leverage because they grind bigger gears, and use their upper body more. His position is a give and take, and it works for him, as it could work for countless others with that style. I don't think one is better than the other, it is what you can ride, and do ride to be prepared. As for handling it is no big deal. You all out there associate handling with lame triathletes. I was a bike racer, and have logged tens of thousands of miles on tri bikes as well as road bike like these guys, and handling is second nature. Don't project problems on these guys that most of them just don't have issues with. Granted some of the ones that get on the tri position for the first time look lame, but a few work outs will smooth that out quickly for them.

So the answer here is that several different positions will work for the different riding styles, some more aero with less power, and others with more power to overcome any aero diffencies. As to how they can ride on the tip so well, it's simple, there is very little weight on the saddle. If you are set up right, then most of your weight is held up through the aero pads themselves, and when you are really on it in a race, then you pull foreward and lift your butt. If you have problems there, then it's a sign that something needs to be tweaked. I ride like that for 5 hours if need be, and never have any problems. It is not their short distance that allows them to ride there, it is the proper weight distribution.....
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]
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Who won the time trial?
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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 I really dont think some people payed attention to what Josh said: "I have to say that in the last 6 years I've been to like 20 tunnel tests of both pro and amateur athletes, roadies and triathletes, and this is the only time I've ever seen a bar position like this work for anybody"

What will happen is that a bunch of people will rush out and set their bars up like Landis just like they tried to set up like Ullrich or Bjorn and then wonder why they are riding slower. The point is that the "standard" position works best for most people but there will always be those who do better with something different. I wouldnt adopt an unorthodox position unless I had some windtunnel time and perhaps velodrome time to determine that:

1. It was better aerodynamically for me

2. I could actually produce power in this position
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [flying wombat] [ In reply to ]
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Who's the golfer? Jim Furyk? Has that really crazy swing with the little curl at the top of his backswing. Seems to work for him. Wouldn't try to copy it. And the bottom line is, when his club drops into the ball-strike zone, everything falls into place right where it matters. The bottom line with Floyd probably has more to do with that flat back and those powerful legs.

Bob C.
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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Who's the golfer? Jim Furyk? Has that really crazy swing with the little curl at the top of his backswing. Seems to work for him. Wouldn't try to copy it. And the bottom line is, when his club drops into the ball-strike zone, everything falls into place right where it matters. The bottom line with Floyd probably has more to do with that flat back and those powerful legs.

Bob C.
And if were talking golf...don't forget about Happy Gilmore...his swing rocked!!! And yes, it is Furyk with the little hook at the top of the swing.

_______________________________

Good athletes train when they want to, great athletes train when they don't......

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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]
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How does he produce power when he lifts his knee inches above his elbow and nearly to his nipples. His knees are obviously wider than his hips so that helps but I can't imagine how he produces power from a stroke like that.
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Many TTers have the truncated saddle. Landis wants to ride steeper than anyone else, it appears: his butt looks like it is 6" further forward than Hincapie's. UCI rules say you can't have your aerobar extensions too far forward, and I think that's why his are tilted up.[/reply]

Bingo! This is all about the 75 cm rule. If you look at the Hamilton picture above, you can see he is probably breaking it and almost certainly would be if his arms were not angled up. I think everyone knows you want get your front as low and far forward as you can without putting the bar ends beyond 75 cm. You can do that by putting the elbows way out to the side, or way forward and then angling the extensions up. More pros opt for the former option. But either one will work.



- jens
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Re: The Landis position (with pic)......discuss. [CUTRI] [ In reply to ]
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"I can't imagine how he produces power from a stroke like that. "



It's a Mennonite thing.

Bob C.
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