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The Kona Swim Poll
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Lots of emotions involved when coming to change the format of Kona. Most agree that the AG race needed a change to make for a fair race. Some believe that they need to leave the tradition of the race alone.

One option that I'd like to see and potentially implemented is:
Wave group starts based on KQ Qualifying Swim time.

Kona is the only race on the WTC IM circuit where the RD has data on the athletes before heading into the race. I envision that a mixed gender start using the swim time achieved during the race which got them to the show. Perhaps delineate by 5 minute intervals: EX-have a sub 60 minute wave, 61-65 min wave, 66-70 min wave, etc. What say you?






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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What do you do with the folks that qualified via a 70.3 or the swim was shortened or cancelled?

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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's by far a better way. It also avoids the age group drafting as many differ on swim pace. While I prefer a full mass start with pros in front line, this seems far better than anything they've adapted or proposed yet.
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
EX-have a sub 60 minute wave, 61-65 min wave, 66-70 min wave, etc. What say you?

they already sorted like that, and it didn't work out. It was called the mass start.

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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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they already sorted like that, and it didn't work out. It was called the mass start
---

Except they didn't.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
they already sorted like that, and it didn't work out. It was called the mass start
---

Except they didn't.

LOL!

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Lining up people by swim times takes away some of the race element. There is no way to tell if someone is ahead of you or behind you because people have started the race at different times.
Keep the mass start, bring it back at other races too.
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [Bifff] [ In reply to ]
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Bifff wrote:
Lining up people by swim times takes away some of the race element. There is no way to tell if someone is ahead of you or behind you because people have started the race at different times.
Keep the mass start, bring it back at other races too.

Not sure why you and others keep bringing this up for races that aren't Kona/WC. <10% of people care about head to head competing in that sense in most WTC races so just get over it.

As for Kona, or for any WC the head to head competing element should be there by AG but it is already clear that one mass start isn't the best answer for a fair race. At this point, I feel like those asking for it to go back to one mass start were probably those who enjoyed drafting in packs.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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Triathlon should be considered a race. The rolling start doesn't make for any less drafting on the bike unless the stagger is over a long period of time, which isn't possible for an IM with a midnight cut off.
A mass start is a cleaner swim after things get sorted out in the first ten minutes. With rolling or wave starts you are always swimming into slower swimmers in the waves in front of you. Its a real mess at IM Lake Placid on the second loop.
The solution to drafting on the bike is to have less people in the race.
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [Bifff] [ In reply to ]
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Bifff wrote:
Triathlon should be considered a race. The rolling start doesn't make for any less drafting on the bike unless the stagger is over a long period of time, which isn't possible for an IM with a midnight cut off.
A mass start is a cleaner swim after things get sorted out in the first ten minutes. With rolling or wave starts you are always swimming into slower swimmers in the waves in front of you. Its a real mess at IM Lake Placid on the second loop.
The solution to drafting on the bike is to have less people in the race.

Rolling start still has a clock, so uhm, still a race but in time trial format.

The rolling start *does* mean there is more separation on the road and drafting is not nearly as inevitable as it is when 700 men come out of the water within 12 minutes of each other as they do in Kona.

Have you swam Kona before? Not sure about the 10 minute idea. I swam 57 in Kona and had a pack the whole way. In a normal IM, my swim does mean I swim alone after 30 seconds usually. We are specifically talking about the Kona swim start here.

In my experience, when you catch the people in the waves in front, the speed differential is so great that it is generally not an issue. Wave-based swim caps help as the other person knows they are being caught by a faster swimmer and lets them go, rather than racing someone in their wave.

No second loop in Kona. In terms of lapping people on a 2 lap course, when I catch people on their first lap and I'm on my second, I go past them so quickly they are not in my way.

Fewer people in the race sounds nice, but it means much higher entry fees or a lower profit/sustainability for IM events. People (correctly) already point out that IM is already very expensive.

I get it from an ego point of view; I love coming into a fully packed T1 and totally empty T2. But at the end of the day, people don't even know the top 10 pros, and most of them don't know the podium, just the winner. So it's really your race against your time. The wave starts will increase fairness; whether the time gaps between the waves is sufficient, we will see this year, no?

In terms of the qualifying time idea, I do not think it is workable based on qualifying times. Wetsuit vs non wetsuit swims, currents, different distances etc.

I'm surprised IM has not monetized the solution by holding a mandatory 500m time trial two days before the race. This will increase the value of the race to local communities (people have to arrive earlier) and hence IM's bargaining power to extract more free stuff from the host community. For Kona, I think it would actually work well as you have to check in 2 days before Saturday anyway. It would be a pretty fun event in my view and add a little buzz before the Thursday underpants run. BUT...the key problem they are attempting to address is congestion on the bike, not in the swim, so the wave solution can work without this additional event.
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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no they did. they had a system where the sub-55 people went first, then the 55-58 group, then the 58-1hr group, then the 1hr to 1:05 group, etc.

Tri-Banter wrote:
they already sorted like that, and it didn't work out. It was called the mass start
---

Except they didn't.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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Educate me more: Did they separate the groups with a time gap, such as 5 minutes between each group (like a traditional wave start)? Or was it fast people in front tapering down to slow people in the back but still a mass start?






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
Lots of emotions involved when coming to change the format of Kona. Most agree that the AG race needed a change to make for a fair race. Some believe that they need to leave the tradition of the race alone.

One option that I'd like to see and potentially implemented is:
Wave group starts based on KQ Qualifying Swim time.

Kona is the only race on the WTC IM circuit where the RD has data on the athletes before heading into the race. I envision that a mixed gender start using the swim time achieved during the race which got them to the show. Perhaps delineate by 5 minute intervals: EX-have a sub 60 minute wave, 61-65 min wave, 66-70 min wave, etc. What say you?
Seriously is this debate still going? Yes I would love to maintain the mass start buy having been caught up in that pack I get it and doing what they have done is the best thing they can do. Yes we could argue what age group could be staggered as to start time but racing for a world title you have to go head to head with your competitors and who crosses the line first wins. How I dream of crossing the line aloft and announced world champion rather than checking on my phone and finding out half an hour later. Yay Ironman tracker says I'm the world champ... As it is women starting after men apart from the much older bracket are generally faster bikers than the women purely based on power so even if you base the wave starts based on swim times men will be coming from behind and have to pass slower people on the bike. The whole reason for doing this is creating a less congested bike course and then you will have women drafting off men so it makes for a less fair race for the women.

This is the best option they have to still race head to head and de-congest the bike course. It is the world titles...
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
Bifff wrote:
Lining up people by swim times takes away some of the race element. There is no way to tell if someone is ahead of you or behind you because people have started the race at different times.
Keep the mass start, bring it back at other races too.


Not sure why you and others keep bringing this up for races that aren't Kona/WC. <10% of people care about head to head competing in that sense in most WTC races so just get over it.

As for Kona, or for any WC the head to head competing element should be there by AG but it is already clear that one mass start isn't the best answer for a fair race. At this point, I feel like those asking for it to go back to one mass start were probably those who enjoyed drafting in packs.

Agree with the first part of your post. As for the highlighted part, your feeling is wrong, as far as I am concerned :-) . I liked the mass start but did not enjoy drafting. It sucks but it is unavoidable sometimes. I got caught in a packs so I slowed down, then slowed down some more and eventually just didn't want to slow down any more and there was nowhere to go. I think this was discussed many times.
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [Bifff] [ In reply to ]
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Bifff wrote:
Triathlon should be considered a race. The rolling start doesn't make for any less drafting on the bike unless the stagger is over a long period of time, which isn't possible for an IM with a midnight cut off.
A mass start is a cleaner swim after things get sorted out in the first ten minutes. With rolling or wave starts you are always swimming into slower swimmers in the waves in front of you. Its a real mess at IM Lake Placid on the second loop.
The solution to drafting on the bike is to have less people in the race.

Agree. Didn't this whole wave/rolling swim start begin as Ironman's "swim safe initiative"? Not sure when it transpired to draft mitigation.
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [mjbruiser] [ In reply to ]
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you do understand public affairs and strategic communication don't you?

mjbruiser wrote:
Bifff wrote:
Triathlon should be considered a race. The rolling start doesn't make for any less drafting on the bike unless the stagger is over a long period of time, which isn't possible for an IM with a midnight cut off.
A mass start is a cleaner swim after things get sorted out in the first ten minutes. With rolling or wave starts you are always swimming into slower swimmers in the waves in front of you. Its a real mess at IM Lake Placid on the second loop.
The solution to drafting on the bike is to have less people in the race.


Agree. Didn't this whole wave/rolling swim start begin as Ironman's "swim safe initiative"? Not sure when it transpired to draft mitigation.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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yes, they separated the groups using a technique called "rows". IOW, the fast groups would line up in the first "rows" and the slower groups would line up in the back "rows", etc. They also used an additional system called "left, center, and right" where people could further sort themselves.

I know this sounds crazy but it worked... the fastest swimmers always came out first and the slower swimmers came out last. Every. Single. Year.

Tri-Banter wrote:
Educate me more: Did they separate the groups with a time gap, such as 5 minutes between each group (like a traditional wave start)? Or was it fast people in front tapering down to slow people in the back but still a mass start?

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: The Kona Swim Poll [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
you do understand public affairs and strategic communication don't you?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'm 1 of 3 people on this thread who won't make the correlation between public affairs and "strategic communication" relative to a swim start. I'm all eyes so type away. That's if you have time. Dropping knowledge on ST is a thankless job so thanks in advance!
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