Hello,

I can't comment on why HED chose to make the bike the way they did, but I'm glad they did. One problem with tri bikes is their uniformity. I'm willing to accept that the standard steep tri geometry is best for most people, but certainly not all.

Unfortunately, when a company makes a bike even slightly different the forums are full of "poor geometry" posts. Looking at the HED bike if they copied Cervelo, QR, geometry what would be the point?

Again, for most people slack geometry/drop bars and steep/integrated bars seem to work best, but your results may vary.

Aren't nearly all the road race bikes uniform in their geometry (in terms of seat angle anyway)? So why would one want a standard Trek road race bike over a Cannondale or Colnago or Pinarello, etc.? The reason is because while the geometries are similar, each company offers something that the other companies do not. It may be warranty or frame materials or customer service or a nearby dealer network or price or graphics or something else. But because bikes are similar geometrically doesn't mean that they are uniform.

Is a 78 degree Quintana Roo the same bike as a 78 degree Felt or Cervelo? No, just like a 73 degree Trek isn't the same as a 73 degree Colnago.

The reason that road race bikes all have seat angles within a degree or two of each other is because it has been determined by a variety of sources over time that a 73-ish degree seat tube is works best on that kind of bike. Innovative companies are the ones who can take that geometry and make a product that separates them from the pack (pun intended).

According to what is posted on this site, it has been determined (at least on some level) that a 78-ish degree seat angle is what works best with pursuit bars. What I would like to know is if that is in fact the case, why did Hed (and Abici and others) make a dedicated time trail frame in a slack angled configuration? Is there other information out there that suggests that a slack angled time trial frame complete with pursuit bars is better than a steep one?

I don't know if I'm making this stuff more complicated than it is, but I read things that point me in one direction, but I look around and see things that fly directly in the face of what I read. I know there are exceptions to every rule, but sometimes there seems to be more exceptions as far as bike geometry goes.

I'm not bashing Hed at all. I just want to understand all this stuff to the best of my ability.

RP

A lot of people on this forum are in denial that the many of the fastest triathletes on the bike are actually riding slack. Look at Steve Larsen, LVL, Thomas Helreigel (lately), Luke Bell, etc. not to mention how fast all the Euro pro/TDF time trialists are. Read John Cobb's take on this.

Steep works for many people but not all and not just among the pros. My AG wife is an example.

I'm sure Hed knows what they are doing. I'm also very glad that Hed made this frame the way they did. It gives those who want a shallow angle bike an option.

Bringing Larsen, Hellreigel, LVL and Bell into the equation changes the nature of the discussion. Yes, they ride faster, but how well do they run? If they rode steeper, would they post better race results by being able to run better?

That may nor may not relate specifically to the Hed bike, as it is primarily being marketed for standalone time trials and only secondarily to the tri market (so we've been told).

So I guess the question now has two parts -- do slack angles work better for standalone time trials and steep angles for triathlons/duathlons? And if slack angled bikes are better for standalone time trials, is Dan's article on base bars and seat angles inaccurate -- that is, his belief that pursuit bars do not belong on slack angled bikes?

The Euro pros are very, very fast on their TT bikes. No one can deny that. But they would be fast on a tricycle. And some of them do artificially steepen their seat angles by sliding forward on their saddles or by using shorter saddles. Would they ride steeper if they could?

I guess it all comes down to this -- is Dan's article on base bars and seat angles correct or is it just one man's opinion on what should be done?

Yes, most road bikes have similar geometry. Which is why I also applaud a new manufacturer who comes out with something a bit different in that arena also. Besides geometry material, weight, and fashion matter alot (for both road and tri bikes. (PS I do see your point but actually Colnago's tend to have pretty idiosyncratic geometry compared to most road bikes)

My main point with the HED frame is that the steep angle, aero tube, aluminum frame is pretty well covered. Even if they used standard geometry I think the execution is pretty nice, but the different geometry really sets it apart and will be ideal for some people. Much like if you read T. Demerly's original review of the Blade. He didn't like it for almost everyone - but I'm sure the few who do fit it right are glad that it was available.

"A lot of people on this forum are in denial that the many of the fastest triathletes on the bike are actually riding slack. Look at Steve Larsen..."

And even more people are in denial about the fact that Steve Larsen rides one of the steepest setups in all of triathlon. The guy rides a P3 with the saddle forward on the rails, and he sits on the tip of the seat. A simple glance at him racing puts to rest any doubt.

Where did this myth come from that Larsen rides a slack angle? I think it's because he said it in a magazine article once, but it is simply not true.

Some other athletes (G. Byrn being one) have written and said that they ride "standard road setup." They can *think* that all they want, but their bikes are north of 78 degrees. Byrn, for example, has said he rides "standard", yet has also said that his saddle tip is 5 centimeters in front of the bb! That's as steep as it gets when you're 6'2"!

And, as for Cobb, he sets up the vast majority of non-UCI/ITU triathletes steeply. His "big slam" thing is an anomoly that he reserves for special cases.

I worked for a while with a coach in 2002 that went on tirades against steep setups. He was a died-in-the-wool advocate of roadie angles. I took him my steeply-setup bike. He made a few tweaks and pronounced me perfect. When I got home, I measured my effective seat angle at 78.5 degrees. So much for roadie angles.

"Where did this myth come from that Larsen rides a slack angle?"

Sorry Julian, but it ain't no myth. You might want to read this:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...nterview/larsen.html

Larsen says he rides farther back than a typical triathlete, yet a little forward of a standard road position. That would put him in the middle, wouldn't it? Maybe 75* or so? Don't know, just a guess. At any rate, I have a photo of Larsen on my wall and he appears to be pretty steep. He's on his P3, and looks like he's sitting pretty forward on his saddle. You can't see his saddle in the photo, so I can't tell just exactly how he is sitting on the bike. But it looks like he's pretty forward.

RP

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...03/seatangles03.html

A pic of Larsen's saddle is on there. Cervelo head flipped forward w/ saddle mount and the back end of the rails. Larsen rode steep.

" I have a photo of Larsen on my wall "

I like Steve a lot, but not that much!!!

Hard to judge from one photo. Riders tend to move back and forth on their seats. Can't imagine anyone riding on a saddle tip for a whole IM. You'd need a steel crotch to do so. I've actually noticed that I have a tendency to push myself back on the saddle on both the tri and road geometry bikes that I ride. All I'd go by is what Steve tells us, and he tells the world he rides slack. With his road racing background why would anyone expect different?

And not just Steve Larsen. Luc VanLierde has the fastest IM ever at under 8 hrs and the fastest time at Kona in just a few minutes over 8 hrs. He always rode slack.

BTW, I ride steep usually but as a MOP AG'er my bike times aren't any faster in either position, but I can run better off a steep angle.

[reply]A lot of people on this forum are in denial that the many of the fastest triathletes on the bike are actually riding slack. Look at Steve Larsen, LVL, Thomas Helreigel (lately), Luke Bell, etc. not to mention how fast all the Euro pro/TDF time trialists are.[/reply]

Enough has been set about Steve's effective steepness of seat angle, but another overlooked fact is that many Euro pros ride steep, or as steep as allowed. All 25 riders from Team CSC have the tip of the saddle exactly 5cm behind the bb. Does anyone think that is their preference, or that many of them would be further forward if allowed? And just look at Tyler Hamilton, he rides as steep as any triathlete when you take into account where he sits on the saddle. Check it out here:

http://www.cervelo.com/images/2003/4th%20overall.jpg

And that goes for most people when they work hard, cyclists and triathletes alike. As Steve told me, when he pushes hard he will slide to the tip of the saddle. It doesn't matter where that saddle it, it can be all the way back on his road bike or all the way forward on his P3, when the going gets tough he will move to the tip of whereever the saddle is.

---

Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

"Sorry Julian, but it ain't no myth. You might want to read this"

that interview was done in 2001 (we put up a new interview with him today, same link).

since then he's gotten very steep, and in his comments directly to me, he stipulates to this. so you're relying on some old info.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Are there any absolutes in the world of bike fit and bike configuration?"

No, but there are some rules of thumb. Personally I believe 75% or more of the population is better off with steep seat angles. But the only way to really know is to experiment with different set-ups on the same course. A bike fitting can help by giving you a starting point, but it isn't magic and you should continue to try different things.

I started out on a road bike and experimented some with fit and found I was much faster and more comfortable with a forward seatpost and lower handlebars. Eventually I bought a Softride which allowed even further experimentation. I found a steep 80+ degree seat angle gave me the best combination of speed and comfort.

           This thread started out about the Hed bicycle, remember? Steve's three year visit into triathlon really did upset the applecart didn't it? But remember, he did start out riding a standard Mongoose road bike (made by Titanium Sports) with clip ons and standard road wheels, and he kicked some ass! At Lake Placid he claimed to not know how to swim yet, then ripped the bike leg apart and held on with a 3:20 (or so) marathon for the win. Then he tried to become more for a triathlete, got the tri bike from Nytro and then the Cervelo, rode more and more steeply and pretty much became a non contender, finishing poorly or not finishing at all in his hight profile races. I don't think the steep angles helped him much, do you? The Hed bike will be a welcome change for a lot of people, not everyone belongs on a steep angled bike. Too many triathletes think "I'm triathlete, I need a steep angled tri bike" I'm starting to think that seat tube angle is not that important if you are flexible and that the really important measurement on a tri bike is the top tube +stem+ aerobar. I wonder if Steve Larson will have the same effect on the real estate market in Bend that he has had on the Tri world? Good Luck to him!

---

---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

" I don't think the steep angles helped him much, do you?"

steve ALWAYS rode steeply. the question never was, "where did steve ride?" but rather, "where was the saddle in relation to his trunk?"

you can ride a 74-degree bike at 80 degrees. mike pigg did it for an entire career, and is getting inducted into triathlon's hall of fame next month for being probably the most dominent bike rider ever in triathlon. tyler's doing it now, as is simoni and a lot of other tour riders.

steve larsen rode 4:15 on a slow day at wildflower 8 months ago, beating all his close rivals on the bike by 10-15 minutes over 56 miles, and his rivals included many of the top kona contenders. he rode that ride very steep, and at a high cadence, two good things in my book. the year before he rode a lower cadence and got his ass roundly kicked on the bike at WF.

but then he didn't do as well as he'd have liked on the bike at kona and florida. so what does all that prove? perhaps it's not a question of angles or cadence, but more a question of distance. maybe 4 hour races are more his cup of tea. i don't think you can build a bike fit doctrine around larsen.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"steve larsen rode 4:15 on a slow day at wildflower 8 months ago..."

I think you are getting my split and Steve's split mixed up. Steve was 2:15. I think at this race he was still at the 75 degree seat post, but rode the nose the whole way.

"I think you are getting my split and Steve's split mixed up. Steve was 2:15"

yeah, you're right.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I find this quite interesting, since I have an option of picking up a dealer cost HED. Robert has raised my questions very well, so I'm interested in seeing where this goes.
My interest in a tri frame is for just that - tris. I have to be concerned about more than the pure ride - I also have to do a run afterwards, and since it's my weakest leg, it's even more important for me to be as strong as possible when I get off the bike. When I read Cobb's "slam" theories, it is all about the ride, but doesn't address the run. Even if he's right, and I shave 30 sec off my bike time, half the point of the steep angle is to be faster OFF the bike. 30 sec ON the bike doesn't mean diddly if I lose a minute OFF of it.
Is it just me or does there seem to be a growing divergence between tri and TT setups?

So far, I'm impressed with the HED, and especially with the price. It seems to be a smokin' deal from a great company. However, I gotta ask, from a purely tri standpoint, would I be better holding out for a steeper frame, such as the Cervelo, could the HED be adjusted to become steeper without losing the fit, or should I not worry about it and just go and ride?

Can you get a test ride on the Hed? It would be interesting to hear about it. See how it feels to run of that bike. I doubt it will feel any different than any other bike. I remember when I got my QR, went from a Trek road bike. It was fast, man it was fast. Handled like shit but man was it fast. I thought I'd run like the wind off that bike. Wrong! I still ran like my legs were dead off the bike. I started to run well in triathlons when I started to get triathlon fit, not by buying any special bicycle. Look at the ITU draft legal racers. They ride road bikes with short aero bars and I don't think anyone runs faster off the bike.

---

---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

How true you are about the ITU athletes. However, many would argue that the reason the ITU boys and girls run so fast off the bike is because of the draft legal format. That, coupled with the short bike ride, enables them to run so fast. In reality, it's a combination of both. They are very good runners. They have to be. But drafting certainly allows for faster run splits.

But since you brought up the ITU format, would those athletes ride steeper if they could? When they move from short course to long course, do they not often ride steeper? I know that Chris McCormack for one tends to ride shallow, but his run -- especially at Hawaii -- suffers. I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember Dan saying something about McCormack really limiting his Ironman running due to the shallow angle at which he rides.

So it seems that while some do prefer shallow angles, steeper may in fact be better. Which makes me question yet again why Hed has made a shallow angled TT bike that, at least the majority of the time, will not be used in UCI legal events. That seems to fly in the face of the evidence, both scientific and anectdotal.

And I do believe that Hed -- or any other company -- can come up with a way to make an aero, aluminum, steep angled bike that sets itself apart from the other aero, aluminum, steep angled bikes out there. It just takes innovation and a little business savy.

RP

"would those athletes ride steeper if they could?"

Not in a draft legal race. Tri bikes are fast but they handle like shit, pure and simple. You wouldn't want somebody on a 78-80 degree tri bike riding a couple of inches off your rear wheel. The peleton rides on road bikes for a reason.

Just one more thing. Why is it that there are so many Trek OCLV's at Kona? Is it because the best long distance triathletes around perform well off of them, or is it because they don't know anything about bicycles.

---

---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

It's the same reason why there are so many Treks everywhere - Lance rides em. Trek is a box bike, and simply doesn't have the quality and attention to details that I expect from a bike of that price range. Anyways, sponsoring the US Postal team was a fantastic marketing move by Trek. The Postal team doesn't have to ride the same frame thousands of miles, so the long-term quality issue doesn't affect them much. At least that's the opinion of this guy in the bike business...

Can't speak of all Trek OCLV's at Kona, but Deboom's Trek has a custom seat post clamp that moves the saddle forward. Hmmmmm........

---

----------------------------------
Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T