"So you physically take the specs from the customers?"

"No, my secretary does that"

Just don't start shilling for "Jump to Conclusions" mats any time soon.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

boy, that didn't take long!

if you want to blame "the industry" blame me. i was given carte blanche by both diamondback and cervelo to print whatever aero info i wanted. DB invited me to the tunnel and gave me access to everything. including the raw data, which was not, "proprietary and not for attribution."

you produced a very nice test yesterday, and when it's all over with you'll have demonstrated (i'm quite confident) than cervelo and diamondback - whom you seem to want to hate - were straightforward and honest and transparent with their testing. and that will be of value. you will have done the readers here (and wherever else readers read) a service. just, the service you provide will be to have corroborating the industry's claims, rather than exposing the industry's lies.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I was wondering about that. Thanks for posting that.

BTW in the IT big data world, a database with one million records (lines) and 100 columns (fields) would not be considered big. It'd be about average. A few terabytes here, a few there, and pretty soon you are talking real data.

400 lines (or 3x4 times that) is tiny and could be interpreted by a human easily.
Although we still wouldn't want to because computers are better at it. For truly large datasets looking at the data is meaningless. That's where math comes in, specifically writing reports that bring out useful information out of that raw data.

I think your mistake here is trying to present a reasoned argument when Kiley is just messing with you like he did for months as PV.

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Haven't done a bike with disc brakes, yet, but I've done some autocross racing in the past, and always followed a "bedding in" procedure when we put new pads and/or rotors on the car. Long story short, you do a series of medium speed decelerations, followed by a couple higher speed decelerations, then let the brakes cool. Effectively, you're transferring a thin layer of the brake pad material to the rotors, resulting in a more consistent performance. I've been wondering if bicycle disc brakes need a similar bedding in process.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

ah. wise counsel. point taken.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

They do...but it's not really THAT dramatic of a difference between "bedded" and not IME...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm not actually. I'm just really tired and slowman is saying one thing, most of which I actually agree with, and I'm hearing the one thing I don't REALLY LOUDLY. I apologize, actually. I just need to get some sleep.

Well, that depends. Sometimes it can make a big difference. Sometimes very small. Sometimes somewhere in the middle.

Let's just say I've seen MORE difference between "clean" and contaminated by simple road wetness/grime than "bedded" and not....so there's that :-/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

If what you are predicting is true--that these bikes will all be virtual deadlocks on pure speed, then I think that is a fairly big loss for at least Cervelo (P5X) and Diamondback.

It may be justifiable, even reasonable if you have money, to purchase a ferociously ugly bike when the justification is "its the fastest bike money can buy" or even if it were--and we know it won't be--"it's the best bang for buck you can buy". But, if the designs of the P5X and Andean don't test materially better than their competition, then I can't imagine how anyone could look at those bikes and say "I gotta have it" unless you just fall into the category of I just like to be different than everyone else.

As the owner/builder/driver of an actual racecar (Spec Miata)....Bedding racecar brakes has very little if anything to do with bikes. One of the primary aspects of racecar brake bedding is OUTGASSING the pad material so that it doesn't create a gas layer under the extreme heat. But, racecar brakes get insanely hot. Glowing red, throwing sparks, boiling hydraulic fluid type of hot. They are also design to slow a 2500 lbs (or more) vehicle from 120mph to 45 mph at 1.5g every 10 seconds for an hour.

Other than the physical arrangement of the disc, and pads...nothing could be more different.

"If what you are predicting is true--that these bikes will all be virtual deadlocks on pure speed, then I think that is a fairly big loss for at least Cervelo (P5X) and Diamondback."

well, i don't see it that way. bear in mind that when these bikes first came out they were certain (among some, including kiley) to be aero dogs (the P5X in particular). so all of a sudden if they're equal to the best bikes out there, they lose? every time one of these bikes is primed to overcome an objection the bar gets placed higher.

being a best in class superbike generally means bikes that are:

1. hard to adjust for fit coordinates
2. hard to travel with
3. hard to adjust the brakes
4. often not very good stopping power
5. often not very adjustable period

i know a lot of people don't want to hear this but, as a technical class, on average, disc brakes just stop better than superbike brakes. they stop better, they're easier to adjust. both these bikes have a ton of storage. the P5X, in particular, is easy to adjust, ship, work on, store stuff on, you can put bottles just about everywhere you want, then there's extra storage, the damned thing just does everything, and it's a best in class bike (at least that's what i predict).

the andean starts at around $4000, complete. you can get this bike any which way, from the factory: 1x, 2x, mechanical, electronic, this wheel, that wheel, this color, that color. i predict it will be within a few watts of the fastest bikes tested head on, and it will really come into its own between 5° and 7.5°.

but it just doesn't seem to matter what this bike does, some folks are going to object to it.

let me tell you what the knock on this bike is. the real knock. if you exclude the horseshit complaints that don't add up to spit. this bike is spec'd with the wrong aerobar, and the integrated stem that comes with this bike disallows the use of most other bars. this needs to be fixed. i think it soon will be. (you can ride it now with a standard stem, or there is a list being compiled of other aerobars you can use with the existing stem.)

but that's it! that is the one area where the andean doesn't kill it.

now, the P5X? this is also a great bike. a GREAT bike. but this post is already too long so i'll stop here.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think the Andean is fantastic looking. If the prices/fit/aero were the same I'd choose that one.

I can understand what you're saying with the P5X. At $15k I think it needs to be more aero to justify that cost. If it tests the same as the Tactical that's not good for Cervelo and great for Premier just because of the cost difference.

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--Chris

"At $15k I think it needs to be more aero to justify that cost."

here are my reasons:

1. it's $15,000 the way it's spec'd at $15,000. spec a speed concept, a felt IA, a scott plasma, a dimond, a ventum, you pick the bike, you spec it that way, tell me the price of that bike.

2. there's also a $11,000 spec.

3. the felt DA, when it came out, almost a decade ago, was $12,000. period. that was the price. you can get a P5X for less than you could have gotten that initial DA for.

4. this is a new platform. just as with that DA, new platforms are way up there. they didn't get rid of the P5, the P3, the P2, they added a new bike and next year, the year after, it'll come down in price just as did the Felt DA and IA.

5. have you ridden the bike? have you adjusted it to fit you? have you taken it apart for shipping, put it back together again? i have. if you have the ability to spend time with this bike you'll discover its virtues.

6. and finally, this bike is the grand experiment in human behavior. i don't know how you race, but i know how you writ large races. i know how you plural races. this bike is designed for how people race. how they live. their actual training and racing behavior. i spent upwards of a week with this bike. i climbed from sea level to 6000' and back down. i rode in gusty 30mph sidewinds. i set it up quickly for myself, and had to stop 3 times on the road to make adjustments. what would have taken me 45 minutes to do on a P5-6 took me 45 seconds to do on this bike.

it's hard to appreciate this bike unless you spend some time with it. but look, you may well be better off on a tactical. that bike is just as much a marvel as the P5X. but just because you are best served on the tactical, that doesn't mean everyone else is. i promise you the P5X will make some users 5X happier than they would have been on a tactical. but i also see why the tactical is a no-brainer for a lot of people. that's why i wrote about it in pretty glowing terms.

the tactical: the best value in a high-end superbike.
the P5X: easily the most civilized superbike ever made.
the andean: what would come out if the tactical's value and the P5X's virtues mated and had a baby.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Sure, I recognize looks are subjective and a small percentage of people will like the looks of the Andean but you must also recognize that you are in the very small minority if you like the looks of that bike.

Regarding livability with these bikes what about changing a flat with the P5X and Andean? I'm not sure with disc brakes and through axles how challenging that would be.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Perhaps but I will stick with my emotional, unapologetic , can't-even-get-to-the-substance-of-the-bike-because-they-are-so-ugly response.

I'm not in the market for a bike... I'm perfectly to ride my well-thought out P2 build but if I were, that Premier would be at the top of the list as it appears to check all the boxes you mention for much less.

I know.

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--Chris

"Regarding livability with these bikes what about changing a flat with the P5X and Andean? I'm not sure with disc brakes and through axles how challenging that would be."

there are thru axles and there are thru axles. nowadays the speed it takes to change a flat with a thru axle is just about the same as with a standard quick release, bearing in mind that it all got slowed down a bit after lawyer lips became the norm.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"you are in the very small minority if you like the looks of that bike."

you are in the very small minority of people who feel the need to let everybody know their unsolicited opinion about that bike.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm sure it's fantastic but $15k is a big ask for a lot of people, me included. Doesn't matter if it's $15k for a Cervelo, Trek or anything else. I've bought 3 new motorcycles for less than $15k.

I know people will buy it and love it, but I think for many people it'll be hard to justify that cost if the shootout comes out as a draw, which I think it will.

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--Chris

need? definitely not.

Unsolicited? I guess...but that's an interestingly narrow definition of "unsolicited". There are dozens of threads dedicated to discussing these bikes none of which were started by me. There are many forum members who have made a living--or at least a name for themselves-- by offering "unsolicited" opinions about their looks, functionality, aeroness, price point etc. Isn't that the point of an online forum--discussion of all things triathlon?? I am simply weighing in--and very late to the game in doing so.

I think you're thinking of the 2011 DA update which was first released in a Di2-only version for $12,500.

The original, 2007, DA was $7250 retail.

Your point is still valid. Wouldn't have brought it up except mentioning the $12.5K DA can go full circle: it's the same frame mold as the B2 used in the role of "Mavic Open Pro" in this test. (minus Bayonet fork). Kind of bolsters your argument about how quickly things can trickle down.

it has simply been my observation that when people offer public, unsolicited opinions about the appearance of men or women they don't intend to date, religions they don't intend to join, or products they don't intend to buy, those opinions trend toward the negative.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman