Sure the leading edge may not be concave, but the two-foot tall letter C it makes heading into the wind if you aren't going perfectly straight is very concave. That possibly acts as a giant wind trap compared to a down tube angled back.

We still haven't seen anybody on this design destroy the competition in a real-world race. If it was really that amazing, wouldn't we have seen the opposite by now? That's why I'm suggesting that it could be acting like a parachute at least some of the time.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

Hmm you might be onto a business venture...

We assemble you a kickass aero minimal cost bike (pimped to your standards) give you an aerocamp hour to dial it in and warranty it x years. I feel like there is a market there, but it may be the coronas on the beach talking. You could buy new old stock from dealer showrooms even and give a slight boost to the lbs economy. All for a nominal fee.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Yeah. We're stuck because Slowman, et al, are acutely aware of others' biases, but a little myopic to their own. But the opposite is probably true. He can probably see bias in us that we're oblivious to. I think he sees all the behind-the-scenes blood, sweat, and tears that people in the industry go through to get us equipment. People risking their financial futures on an idea. And sees all the vitriol here as an affront to those people, and just stupidity.

But yeah, Flo and the Coggan-led TriRig brake testing are the gold standard for industry transparency in testing, in my opinion. It rapidly goes downhill from there.

I don't know which post you read, but I didn't say anything bad mouthing shops or folks that wrench there. I had my Andean wiring and a lot of the setup done by my local bike shop and they did a great job. That's a service I'll pay for, and it's the one I hope my local bike shop pivots to in order to stay solvent in a world with direct-to-consumer competition for both complete bikes and components.

While I'll pay for service, I won't pay for is $80 Continental tires at that shop when I can get the same tires for $32 online. What I won't pay for is $2400 for an Ultegra Di2 group or $400 for Dura Ace chainrings when I can get those things online for less than 50 cents on the dollar. Look, these are my local bike shop's suppliers, and they are distributing their own product globally in such a way that I can buy the product online for lower than my shop pays for it at wholesale. If you don't think that supply chain is broken, I don't know what to tell you.

I also think you missed the caveats "for those of us who know" and "for me anyways". I was trying to explain my perspective, not suggest that my perspective is the same as someone who can't cobble together a bike online.

And yes, I have absolutely thought about helping people cobble together value-priced builds, but the reality is it takes a lot of time to get the very best prices, and it can be a bit of a headache when things go wrong -- for instance, my saddle for my Andean was incompatible with the stock saddle clamps, so I had to go on a wild goose chase to find new hardware just so I could ride the bike. For the products I buy new -- usually groupsets, items that need to be cut, etc. -- I shop far and wide to find the best deal. For used items, I lurk in the classifieds. And all this takes time.

On this thread, a lot of us have this facility. That's why we are here. And in time more consumers will to as bike shops continue to go out of business. Most people who are serious athletes and plan on spending a lot of time around bikes can figure bikes out. I couldn't even remove my rear wheel from horizontal dropouts without getting chain grease all over my hands three years ago. Now I can facilitate the setup congruence of six of the world's most complex super bikes.

Where can we see the protocol?

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

I'm waiting for the white paper just like everyone else. I'm 99% sure it won't change my opinion of the P5-X. Yes, I have read the Trek white paper. The P5 white paper was good too. Cervelo doesn't have valid data? Really? You do know every protocol for testing is different and you can make any bike look bad or worse depending on the protocol. Cervelo chose to do a protocol based on the average age grouper. Kiley chose a protocol based off of what he does.

I'm sorry you don't view Cervelo's data as valid but that is YOUR opinion. I'm perfectly fine with their test. I won't stop defending Cervelo just because you don't like the bike.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

  
Hi,


May I suggest an alternate analysis of the Andean design? You're suggesting that the airflow will be 'caught' by the downtube up and down (the X-Y plane). Instead, try looking at it in cross section (the X-Z) plane. The airflow will first get split by the wheels and pass on to the downtube.


So would 'no airfoil at all' really be faster than a second airfoil? My position is 'no' - not when the 'no airfoil' case leaves a turbulent wake behind the wheel which would otherwise develop and/or filling in behind the front wheel only to be split again by the frame/rear wheel.


I would also suggest that this exploit has been proven in the field already. The P5, the IA and other generations of frames all successfully had front wheel cutouts near the top of the downtube. Only a combination of reluctance and the UCI rules have prevented the downtube from going lower and creating a full front cutout.


BTW, I think this test was great regardless where the Andean will place. This new generation of Triathlon bikes has given consumers more choices than ever before. Perhaps, this breadth of choice has lead to confusion and as an industry we have to do better to communicate.


That's where Kiley can help - he's a straight shooter - he's got upper management written all over him :)


-KevQ

Bryan I don't want to give you too much of a hard time because a lot of what you say makes sense, and you contributed massively to this test and the following discussion.

But are you really fine with THIS? Gels taped up into the air on a bike that has both an integrated bento AND an integrated draft box, and then 3x 750ml bottles. In the absence of a white paper to justify the protocol it just looks like handicapping. I think this is the kind of thing that has some of the more critical thinkers on here rubbed up the wrong way.

I was only there to bring the P5-X and take photos and video of the testing. I helped Kiley install tires and tubes and that was about it.

Yes, I am fine with it and I will tell you why.

I asked Cervelo why they had those gels taped like that. Their answer was the bikes needed to carry a flat kit of 1 tube, 2 co2, 2 tire levers, and an inflator. 3 bottles were to be carried on each bike and 8 gels.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think you can fit 8 GUs in any of those bentos without the sides bulging out. The P5-X bento is MASSIVE. You take out the tab in the bottom and it goes down into the frame. That is why there is no gels taped on the P5-X. I can almost fit my Iphone 7 Plus into that bento. Cervelo put 4 gels in each bento and taped 4 more on the bikes. On Slowtwitch, everyone is pissed about that. In the real world, this is what you see. If you don't, then you haven't spent enough time around age groupers or walked around in transition.

This was Cervelo's protocol that every bike had to carry the same amount of stuff. So they figured out how to do it and that was taping 4 GUs onto the stems. You can call it handicapping if you want but you are ignoring the reality that these bikes were setup for an Ironman distance race for the average age grouper.

Everyone is ignoring that the P5-X is 3W faster with this setup because apparently aerodynamics is the most important. No, it's not. Not anymore. The bikes are so close to each other that storage and integration is the new Aero.

Take time to reflect on why they set these bikes up, examine the average age grouper, and realize this was all set up for Ironman distance racing and you will see why Cervelo did what they did.

Where are you going to put 8 gels on these bikes?

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Also, if you notice on the Ventum, the bento bag is mounted between the arms since the Ventum holds 2 bottles of water and they put the bottle in the rear like the other bikes.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

True, but again, all that you just stated above is valid IF the leading edge is actually right behind the front wheel. But in the real world, it spends a lot of time not in line with the front wheel. Any kind of turning of the steering puts that giant C in the x-y plane straight into the wind. If you were to use drag modeling software on these two bikes and turn the steering just a few degrees to the right or left, you'd get a giant red plume of drag right in the middle of that C.

Other bikes with a bit of cutout near the head tube doesn't matter because the top of the C is much flatter there (level with the wind) and so close to the head tube. That departure from the y axis is tiny compared to the departure from the y axis at the middle of the wheel, which is 30 centimeters (12 inches) away from the axis of the head tube.

Take something a foot long and turn it just a few degrees, keeping one end in place. A piece of notebook paper is a good approximation, being 11". The other end travels plenty far to expose an entire leading edge of something that was supposed to be hidden behind it. Not a big deal if that thing was angled rearward. Very big deal if it is shaped like parachute.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

In one of the 3 bottles.

I don't doubt that there was a protocol, but without the white paper most of us don't know what it was. But basically I think the protocol you just described is stacked in the P5x's favour. Why 3 bottles if none are carrying concentrated calories? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Most the AGers your are talking about are doing MDOT or Challenge races with aid stations every 10 miles.

But hey, there are lots of ways to slice this up as you must know after the week you've had.

Not everyone wants to put GUs in their bottles. Not everyone carries 2 bottles when they race. I've seen 3 bottles at half-ironmans.

Slowtwitch is like 5% of the tri world. People don't seem to understand that. I carry 3 bottles in training sometimes. It's really funny to read the comments on the P5-X and realize that no one really stopped to understand the protocol. They just use their keyboard to be Internet Keyboard Warrior and talk about things they barely understand.

You can hurt or help any bike with a test protocol. There is no perfect test.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I'll also add this. Does anyone remember that Cervelo took over 14,000 photos? Those photos inspired the Cervelo P5-X test protocol. I'm so terribly not sorry they didn't make a bike just for Slowtwitch.com

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

If only they'd invent some sort of triathlon outfit with pockets on the back so that you could put gels there.

I don't know anyone who reaches back to get gels out of their suit while on a bike.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I thought the same thing.

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

GTFO with your crazy nonsense!

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

On that note, they were serving Nuun and Water on the IMNZ course this year. I don't know who made that decision, but seriously wtf. Nuun has like 10 calories.

Yeah they had solid food like Clif bars but I don't want to try unwrapping that stuff while riding.

I like how putting food in a jersey pocket is totally unreasonable, but having a bottle behind your seat makes complete sense. I would love to see how much time it costs the average age grouper to sit up, grab the bottle from behind the seat, drink, return the bottle to the cage, get back in the aero bars.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

I can grab a bottle off the back, drink, and put it back while staying in aero.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

You can. So can I. Took me a while to be able to do it and hold a line.

I said "average age grouper" who tapes gels to their bike (I line up shot blocks on the top tube behind the stem, then eat them from rear to front for maximum aero benefits (NOT PINK).

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

I run 1 BTA (A2) and one bottle behind. Transfer all of the liquid from the back bottle to the front while still staying aero. Return bottle to back and carry on. It is not that hard to do.

Thanks for the explanation and kind words, Kevin. And agree with you as you know on the communication and as I've said here.

Disregarding aero, I think the Andean has its challenges -- the current state of disc braking and peripheral components (wheels, hydraulic Di2 levers, and the like) being chief among them -- and its huge merits: amazing design, hawt as all hell, and possibly a winner at high yaw given the engineering behind it that was designed to "win the championship".

I don't know if I will keep it honestly, most of all that the wheels I acquired for the bike's braking system -- the Enve 7.8 SES disc hoops -- are intolerably difficult to mount a tire on. And that's a regular tire, not a tubeless tire. This is the only wheelset on the market that isn't just a rim brake rim slapped into a disc brake hub, and I have to break levers just to get my race tires on the rim. Being an early adopter here is fraught with downsides, but this tech is going to get a lot better quickly. Imminent are Dura Ace hydro TT levers, for instance, and I would be shocked if disc brake rim molds aren't in the works over at SRAM. In fact we may see that on rappstar's bike this weekend, apparently.

Full hydro disc brakes are better brakes, which everyone seems to agree on except for Tom A. But it's still early yet on their practicality as an end consumer.

These are all fast bikes. They are all great bikes. But they are different bikes. The rest of us consumers just need to sort through all that to make purchase decisions, if we decide to buy new bikes at all.

Yeah? Try that in the tunnel and see if there's no aero hit to your drag numbers when you do that in the middle of a one minute sweep.