you still around after that? ;)

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

"I think the main requirement for posting here should be that they need to be completely transparent about their testing protocol. Tell us what the setups were that were tested, in detail, and how those were determined."

behind the scenes we've made a lot of progress behind the scenes today determining just that.

just, i found out a lot today about human nature. i found out a number of things about a number of people today. we're trying our best to provide a service here. some of what we do here (the lavender room, for example) make is absolutely no money, actually cost us money, but we provide this for those folks because they enjoy it.

i'm pretty disillusioned by a lot of what i've read on this forum. kim jong il? i'm kim jong il? okay.

honest to god. i've made my money. i'd rather be walking the pacific crest trail. some of the folks here, i'm really just happier i think if they go elsewhere.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So, despite it being spelling out who is involved in the OP, and despite having never set these kind of standards before, you accused everyone involved in this test of being incompetent at best and malicious in their intentions at worst.

When people rightfully call you out on this, you say your feelings are hurt ("I am disillusioned").

With no involvement in this testing, besides general interest, I can say that I concede to a lot of the points Jordan made about how we view manufacturer white papers vs "independent" studies. His points make sense. Can you concede that perhaps you were a bit reactive to this thread because.... ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It seems like you don't like Kiley. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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@adamwfurlong

It seemed to me that rather than Dan developing an immediate dislike for the now penitent Kiley, it was more that he was taking into account all of Kiley's incendiary rhetoric about bike companies, a few manufacturers in particular. I got the message that if he was going to, having more or less allowed Kiley to say those things previously, now turn around and publish what purports to be a fair, open, cross-brand "shootout" of bikes, which would also claim to make concrete recommendations on bike purchases...... he was going to demand a perhaps higher than normal standard of transparency about methods and testing to do so. And that because the study crosses brands, it was more volatile in nature than say a single-brand, self-performed studies -- which we ought to be suspicious of in any event.

I dunno. I'm with you, just kinda hanging back to see what comes out of it. But this testing *may* influence a bike purchase by me in the near future, too..... so I hope they're very careful.

-Eric

Apparently I really did ruffle some feathers. Tempers are short.

To remove all snark: I really do enjoy the simplicity and clarity of this forum tech. It's a precision tool that does what it's intended to do very well.

My only point was that it's not intended to present scientific data.

"It seems like you don't like Kiley. Please correct me if I'm wrong."

i like kiley fine. he and i have exchanged a fair number of emails, some of which refer to personal requests (help in finding the right sized bike and whatnot). but i'm charged with running a reader forum, which is read by a lot of people. when folks (more than just kiley) have been openly critical - disdainful - of the very bikes being tested, i'm going to scrutinize what these folks want to publish on this site.

i'm not going to disallow it, but as a condition of publication HERE i'm going to require more than the minimum because of the comments made about these brands in the lead-up.

if you don't approve of the moderation here, there is a respectful way to tender your critiques. if you really don't approve of the moderation here, if it's really that bad, i don't see how your self-respect allows you to remain.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

for all of Pube's "hatred" for disc brakes, Kiley has paid for not one, but two disc brake, non traditional TT bikes.

studies published by mfg's have financial incentives (via marketing campaigns) tied to results.

what gains can Kiley make by publishing this? (I will again concede Jordan's point about the relationship between good reviews vs bad reviews).

further, a lot of people are attached to this. Dan K. Heath. Brian. A2. more that perhaps are not public knowledge. why is it assumed that they would let their names be tied to this, if they were going to allow for a shit test protocol?

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@adamwfurlong

I absolutely agree with you. But I also see where Dan is coming from. And I have the absolute utmost respect for everyone else involved in this. Bona fides well established for me.

-Eric

Kiley and I need Slowtwitch's help. My shop is supplying the P5-X and I'll be taking it to the tunnel. The P5-X is a medium but we have two problems. Kiley needs to cut the seat post and the stem but the replacement costs for both these items is $595. The bike has to be returned in shape to sell and if we cut the stem to match Kiley's fit, we need to replace it.

If anyone wants to help, we need to raise $595 in the next couple of days. Thanks for the help. You can donate to the Go Fund Me.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

The irony is rich here.

Sure. Care to donate?

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Thanks BryanD.

For the collective: BryanD is able to provide the P5-X because his local shop has obtained approval from Cervelo for us to use the frame and bike in our test. Inside Out Sports in North Carolina is a major Cervelo dealer, and I think the fact that they have secured the parent company's approval speaks to the confidence manufacturers, even large ones, have in this test.

But the reality is that involving the P5-X in this test could require consideration of almost $600. The seatpost must be cut to spec which would require ~$300, and the stem must be cut to meet spec which would require ~$300.

While I and the collective group want to have the P5-X involved in this assessment, the price for participation is simply untenable given the resources available and those involved. If someone individually -- or the group and community effectively -- would like to bridge the gap of money or resources to secure the P5-X participation in this exercise, I am all ears.

But at this point, we may have to proceed with the P5 only.

here is what you wrote:

"Testing the P5-X would be ridiculous. This is clear and convincing evidence it's slower than an intelligently configured P5. As we've known all along."

hence my requiring transparency, and a foreknowledge of the process, as a condition of publication of the data here on this site. (heath and brian have been helpful in this process.)

perhaps a lesson learned: best not to decide in advance the worth of a product bike you're endeavoring to test, unless you're certain you'll never be given the opportunity to test it!

i like to think maybe this is the evolution of a new forum superstar. maybe your seat post cost problem can be solved. just, if it is, are you prepared to reconsider your view of this bike, perhaps allowing it the dignity of a fighting chance?

if so, i'll put up the first $300. now you have to find the rest.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

If Dan adds $300, I'll send $50. We need $250 more to go.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Willing to add some cash here as well, but what are we talking about with respect to the P5x stem? My understanding is that it slides up and down, so it's adjustable without having to cut? Seatpost makes perfect sense of course.

The stem can be cut as well. Currently it is too long and bottoms out making it impossible to reach Kiley's fit.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I just donated. There are so very few independent wind tunnel tests. Maybe this one won't be perfect, but I would much rather have SOME data than not at all!

Well that's just stupid. Money incoming anyway.

I wish this was a little further out so that I could send my Pearson to give the rest a good trouncing.
Unfortunately I am in the middle of several structural modifications to mount a proper brake (TriRig) instead of Graeme's custom V-Brake, and fixing a couple of other initial aerodynamic design flaws behind the stem and fork crown. Oh well.

Chris

It's Dan's site, he can do whatever the fuck he wants with it.....I don't see any issue with him not allowing the results.

If you show me where to donate I will do $50 in the am

https://www.gofundme.com/...tt-bike-aerodynamics

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

thank you for the show of solidarity. but just to be clear! what i'm requiring as a condition of publication is that i'm satisfied the test is conducted correctly, because rightly or wrongly a lot of weight is going to be attached to this (because it's got the patina of being unbiased), and because a lot of unflattering statements were made about the very bikes being tested by the very person organizing the testing (statements he may now wish he'd not made; we've all said words we wish we could reach out and grab after they've left our mouths).

what i'm hearing today is giving me some comfort. so i'm optimistic. cautiously. i think we're headed down a good path.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Donated. Would be nice to have the p5x included

Thank you!

It looks like we are at $300 from Dan and $100 from myself and 2 others total.

We still need $195 to go! I can get the parts ordered asap as long as we can cover this.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/