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The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread
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We started this in college to go with Dev's run challenge.
Like the run challenge, water running doesn't count ;-)

get your hand on the wall

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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2500 scm and 4.1 easy miles (40:53) first run since my 14 mi trail race Saturday, quads still a little sore but happy to run
arms were a little heavy this AM - I lifted yesterday

5 x 200 on 3:30 (3:08, 06, 00, 2:57, 2:56)
50 kick
5 x (100 "fast" + 50 kick) 1:24, 23, 23, 21, 21
500 swim 7:37
50 kick
150 cd

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Warm up

100 for time: 1:0X. A little better than where I thought I'd be. I think :59.XX is possible. Last month's discussion about 100 times got me curious.

10x25s IM order

Drills

Warm down.
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I did a half marathon Friday, felt surprisingly decent yesterday afternoon.

Main set 3 x 200 descend 1-3
6 x 100s descend 1-3, 4-6

total workout was 2100 M
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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was the half "just" a run or was it a Fri race?

3400 scm and 2.5 mi run for me (run was mostly easy, 24:05). My legs feel almost normal walking, quads still a little sore running.

500 swim 7:42
50 kick
2 x 400 on 6:30 (5:59, 5:52)
50 kick
3 x (100 fast + 50 kick) 1:21, 20, 19
300 swim
50 kick
3 x (100 fast + 50 kick) 1:20, 19, 19
2 x 200 on 3:30 easy
50 kick
100 cd

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [apmoss] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
100 for time: 1:0X. A little better than where I thought I'd be. I think :59.XX is possible. Last month's discussion about 100 times got me curious.

nice!
yeah for sure on the 59 point. Did you do your TT off the blocks? If not that's free seconds.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I had one of my best swim sessions ever today, but it wasn't hard/fast for me, but that is the point:

400m+200m+100m+100m WU. (7:53-3:35-1:45-1:45). Those times never felt so easy.

1500m (26:46). The goal was sub 27min with an expected "moderate-strong tempo" feel. But it was "light tempo". In fact it verged on "easy". 26-something 1500m never felt this way before.

400m CD. (7:45).

I think my doing longer swims these days has helped. I often do 3000m swims, and sometimes even 5000m.

I think I am emerging from a slump. And I have a theory about that. What I'm about to say might be controversial, and perhaps no swim-coach will ever agree with me:

I'm sure I've done about 25000 flipturns over the last 2 years. I even got reasonably good at them. But 97% of the time, I was gasping. The oxygen debt that I incur by not getting a breath at the wall has always tormented me. I've read the many threads here about this subject, and I know that many say "just give it time - it could take 3-5 years" etc etc.

But I just got tired of being taxed most of the time, cardio-wise. I quit flip-turns 3 weeks ago. Now I swim happier, and relatively gasp-free.

And I actually think...(this is the controversial part)....that all of those gasping sessions put me in a hole!! (Please be gentle with me.) It actually accumulated to be a form of over-training for me. I'm convinced of this. I feel myself emerging from a year-long fog.

I just feel that flip-turns will never work for me. They aren't for everyone, especially the swimmer who started at 57 and was a runner for 45 years!?

Anyway....thanks for reading, and I will entertain any replies that say I'm smart or crazy. :)

I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.
Last edited by: Skuj: Nov 2, 22 16:12
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Two days in a row, whoo hoooo! Antibiotics seem to be working, so opted to do another easy day to keep my fish gills working.

8x200@3;10/3;00- swim(2;58)buoys(2;51/2;45/2;43/2;40)pulls(2;35/33/30)
2x100IM kick(2;00/1;58)
4x50@1;30 IM order-fly(37+)bk(43)brst(43)free(34)2x50 buoy(39/38)
2100SCY in 38 minutes
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Skuj] [ In reply to ]
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re: gasping

when you turn are you breathing on the stroke right before the turn, and/or on the stroke when you come out of it? The conventional wisdom used to be "don't breathe before the turn" but then we figure out it's faster coming OFF the turn, so now for distance stuff I'll breathe right before the wall, and try to not breathe on the stroke(s) right after it.

I usually feel like I'm a bit oxygen deprived doing anything moderate (and certainly fast) and I think that is something you get used to. It's not that it's going to go away; part of swimming fast is breath "holding" (well, exhaling w face under and grabbing a quick breath).

Good turns are hard; my turns aren't awesome (I don't dolphin off the wall well; it's on my list to work on) so yes, good turns are hard, even for good swimmers, and it makes sense to me that they're extra extra hard for adult onset swimmers.

happy to have you here no matter what you do at the wall

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Three nights w some trouble sleeping has me tired me cranky but the splits were good 😊 1900 scm and an 8 mi run 76 min

500 742
50 kick
4 x (100 fast, 50 kick) 1:21, 20, 19 high, 19 low
300 swim 432
50 kick
2 x (100 fast 50 kick) 1:19s :)
100 cd

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
Last edited by: Dr. Tigerchik: Nov 3, 22 7:05
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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what about land swimming?

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
what about land swimming?

If you're using a VASA or something, feel free to tell us about it

I just got in from watching the local high school meet, bunch of those kids are faster than I am, that was a nice ego check :P

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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according to the earlier professed logic... if water running doesn't count for 100-100. then land swimming can't count for this.

I dont make the rules.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Q for monty etc: if my fast 100s are 1:19/1:20, if I were to do fast 50s, what sorts of splits would I be looking for? Certainly under 40, but by how much? (I know the answer is "under by as much as possible" but I'm trying to get a sense of what's a reasonable goal). Same on 25s, what would you look for for times? With 25s in particular I don't know what to shoot for on account of complete lack of turns.

I really would actually like to get faster, I've been splitting 1:19s for a bit. I've been doing shorter repeats while I get my R shoulder strength up - it wasn't liking longer intervals for a bit. I also figured out fast 100s and 200s are fun.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Friday: 1700 scm, 5.25 mi run (4.75 mi @ 9:22/mi), hip and shoulder exercises

2 x (500 swim, 50 kick) 7:32, 7:16
3 x (100 fast, 50 kick) 1:20 high, 1:18, 1:19
150 c/d

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
Quote Reply
Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Tigerchik wrote:
re: gasping

when you turn are you breathing on the stroke right before the turn, and/or on the stroke when you come out of it? The conventional wisdom used to be "don't breathe before the turn" but then we figure out it's faster coming OFF the turn, so now for distance stuff I'll breathe right before the wall, and try to not breathe on the stroke(s) right after it.

I usually feel like I'm a bit oxygen deprived doing anything moderate (and certainly fast) and I think that is something you get used to. It's not that it's going to go away; part of swimming fast is breath "holding" (well, exhaling w face under and grabbing a quick breath).

Good turns are hard; my turns aren't awesome (I don't dolphin off the wall well; it's on my list to work on) so yes, good turns are hard, even for good swimmers, and it makes sense to me that they're extra extra hard for adult onset swimmers.

happy to have you here no matter what you do at the wall


Thanks.

Well, because of this situation, I often tried to sneak a breath right before the turn. (I know some coaches say "no breathing once you are inside the flags" - I roflmao about that. It would literally kill me to do that.) And then, after pushoff, I'm desperate for a breath, so I was always breathing on the stroke after. To do otherwise would put me into such oxygen debt that I'd be done.

I gave it a shot - around 2 years / 25000 turns - maybe 3-5 years would do it for me, but I really can't imagine it.

It bugs me now, because I'm not one of the "cool people" doing flip-turns at the pool. But...I am happy, and oxygenated!! :)

I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.
Last edited by: Skuj: Nov 4, 22 14:12
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Skuj] [ In reply to ]
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Anyway, a couple of short/sprinty type sessions yesterday and today. Yesterday felt meh/tired, today felt great. Noswim tomorrow. 800m PUSH on Sunday. A week ago 13:56 felt tired. I want 13:40s feeling good this time!!

I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Tigerchik wrote:
Q for monty etc: if my fast 100s are 1:19/1:20, if I were to do fast 50s, what sorts of splits would I be looking for? Certainly under 40, but by how much? (I know the answer is "under by as much as possible" but I'm trying to get a sense of what's a reasonable goal). Same on 25s, what would you look for for times? With 25s in particular I don't know what to shoot for on account of complete lack of turns.

I really would actually like to get faster, I've been splitting 1:19s for a bit. I've been doing shorter repeats while I get my R shoulder strength up - it wasn't liking longer intervals for a bit. I also figured out fast 100s and 200s are fun.

Of course, I am not monty, but I think 1:19=36=17. :)

I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Skuj] [ In reply to ]
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3600 SCY total
1500FR, 200IM K
8x100 on 1:40 (1:22-4), 4x50K on 1:15
Pull set {2x200 on 3:00 (2:36-7), 3x100 on 1:30 (1:17-8), 4x50 on 60 (36s)

3rd swim workout after 10 days off at end of Oct. Looking to start jumping in with local masters crew 1day/week to get the speed work and competition, then 2 or 3 day solo.
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Skuj] [ In reply to ]
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yeah that's probably not bad to shoot for.
plan this AM was to sleep in and get some meters in. I did not manage to sleep in so I ran and then did a very easy swim. 7.7 mi in 69 min (58 min @ 6.7 mph) and 1250m straight easy easy 20:30.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, I'll revise my estimate slightly:

I think 1:19.5 = 35.5 ish = 16.5 ish.

I'm a math geek. I believe in "pure percentile of WR" comparisons. ie All the WRs are 100%. (I think the 25m WR is 9.3 ish.) :)

I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Q for monty etc: if my fast 100s are 1:19/1:20, if I were to do fast 50s, what sorts of splits would I be looking for?//

If I remember correctly, you take a lot of rest when you do your fast 100's with some kicking in-between? that is a lot different that doing an interval where you only get 20 seconds rest or so. If you use the same schedule for some 50's, say on a minute, then your easy 50 kick, I would shoot for 35/36's. It will be really hard at first, as like you say, you are a Diesel engine. If it is really all out, no problem, just take more rest, maybe do another 50 easy kick in-between. Goal here is not to see how many, but how fast. You need to shock your body into thinking a great white is chasing you. Good news is it will all trickle down to your distance times too, you seem to have stagnated and hit a wall in your workout times, so got to shock yourself. There is no bad news.. Good luck, you going for the sub minute 100SCY challenge?


Got in today, felt horrible yesterday and was thinking I was still kind of sick. But all good today, finished up the Zpak yesterday too. Just stretching out, thinking about pull form, and trying to not twist at the waist.


2x(3x100@1;40/100IM kick@2;30)swims(1;26/25/21)buoys(1;22/21/19) kicks(1;57/53)
500p@7;00(6;22)
5x50@1;00 frog kick(54/51's)
6x50@1;00. odds IM/evens buoy steady--fly(36)bk(40)brst(42) buoys(40's)
200p@3;00(2;27) 2x50 dolphin(1;01/1;00)buoys(39/36)50 flutter
2300SCY in 42 minutes
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
If I remember correctly, you take a lot of rest when you do your fast 100's with some kicking in-between? that is a lot different that doing an interval where you only get 20 seconds rest or so. If you use the same schedule for some 50's, say on a minute, then your easy 50 kick, I would shoot for 35/36's. It will be really hard at first, as like you say, you are a Diesel engine. If it is really all out, no problem, just take more rest, maybe do another 50 easy kick in-between. Goal here is not to see how many, but how fast. You need to shock your body into thinking a great white is chasing you. Good news is it will all trickle down to your distance times too, you seem to have stagnated and hit a wall in your workout times, so got to shock yourself. There is no bad news.. Good luck, you going for the sub minute 100SCY challenge?

I would indeed love to go 59 point in scy but mostly I was thinking faster 50s and 100s would also help improve distance times.
yes, I tend to do the 100s on lots of rest.

Thank you :D I appreciate it


maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I was anxious and stressed this morning - I have a long workday - so I did my standard stuff because it calms my head down. 3050 scm swim, 3 mi run (26:21 as 9:01, 8:41, 8:40)

5 x 200 on 3:30 (3:05, 3:01, 2:55, 2:50, 2:48)
50 kick
3 x (100 fast, 50 kick) 1:19, 19, 19
2 x 200 on 3:30 (3:03, 3:01)
50 kick
3 x (100 fast, 50 kick) 1:19, 19 high, 20 low
2 x 200 on 3:30 (forgot the splits, don't really care)
50 kick
4 x 50 cd last one fly free

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: The 20th-ish annual November Fish Thread [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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this past week's swims:

Nov 2 - 2200scy
sets: 5x100 with ankle band; 3x100 strong descend on 1:30 (1:01-00-59); 8x50 at 200-like pace on 1:30 (mostly 26's)

Nov 4 - brief open-water-like swim in Barton Springs Pool before an easy 4mi run.

Nov 5 - ~900 yards in full swimrun gear sandwiched by very brief runs

Nov 6 - about 5k as part of Odyssey SwimRun Pace Bend (with 13+mi of trail running)

-----
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