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Re: Testosterone Pellets [TriMom95] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you so much for calling the hotline. You did the right thing. I'll admit it hits home to me personally as an older woman who does Ironman branded events. I was thinking about this a lot today. Even if I wasn't directly affected by dopers this would still matter to me. I do want the sport to be clean and fair for everyone involved. I'm also a stickler for rules and don't like to see them broken.

To everyone else :-) I have always believed apathy is more dangerous than anything else in our society. Stand up and speak out against what you believe isn't fair or just. I am quite opinionated and passionate about so many social issues that don't directly affect me as an old, white, straight lady. i.e - women's right to choose, immigration issues,marriage equality, equal rights regardless of color, sex, religion, etc. I certainly don't place doping on the same level as these social issues, just trying to make a point about standing up for what's right even if it doesn't directly affect you. OK I'll get off my little soap box now. I'm ready for the virtual tomatoes ;-)
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [TriMom95] [ In reply to ]
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He is healthy now with whatever he's doing though, and to take that away if he wants to race has created that blurry line of right vs wrong for me.//

This is what TUE's are for, it should not be blurry for you, they have accounted for people like your friend here...
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
He is healthy now with whatever he's doing though, and to take that away if he wants to race has created that blurry line of right vs wrong for me.//

This is what TUE's are for, it should not be blurry for you, they have accounted for people like your friend here...


So many people keep spouting on about TUE's, but the reality is they are very difficult to obtain, and almost never given out for testosterone, correct??

Regardless, seems to me that WTC isn't wasting their time trying to pop AG'ers anyway, unless they get a call reporting someone and are forced to act.

I'm with Kenny, I don't give a crap what the guy/gal in 50th place is on. I, like most people I believe, go to these races for myself, to compete against myself. I hate the idea of someone having to choose to not participate because they want/need something for their personal health.
Last edited by: SBRcanuck: May 23, 19 3:39
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
monty wrote:
He is healthy now with whatever he's doing though, and to take that away if he wants to race has created that blurry line of right vs wrong for me.//

This is what TUE's are for, it should not be blurry for you, they have accounted for people like your friend here...


So many people keep spouting on about TUE's, but the reality is they are very difficult to obtain, and almost never given out for testosterone, correct??

I'm with Kenny, I don't give a crap what the guy/gal in 50th place is on. I, like most people I believe, go to these races for myself, to compete against myself. I hate the idea of someone having to choose to not participate because they want/need something for their personal health.

Correct, and for a very good reason. You can find all the documentation on the WADA site - basically testosterone provides a big advantage and accordingly requires very strong reasons to justify the granting of a TUE. The TUE rules are also clear on dosage. These people can go through the TUE process if they want, if they do not get granted one what does it say? Seems to me that it says their condition isn't bad enough to justify being allowed to take testosterone and compete.

It's one thing having someone take gear and coming 50th, but what if it is someone coming top 5 who gets a roll down spot? The post mentioned that these people were top 10 after all. That's simply not fair.

Despite taking a pretty hard view on doping, I do think there should be some accommodation for I also don't like the idea of not being able to take part due to a health issue. But there is a difference between participating and competing. Maybe there should be something that you can tick to say 'I'm taking a PED', which would mean that you were still allowed to participate but not given a placing? Feel that is a fair way to go about things while also dealing with the "I'm not racing, just taking part argument", though somehow I think that some of the people espousing it would still complain, undermining that argument really.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Denning76] [ In reply to ]
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My comments were more towards the MOP/BOP participants whom are possibly expected to make a choice between taking a medication they or their docs feel they need, and participating.
For podium and WC spots, I absolutely agree those should be tested.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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That's fair. I still stand by the view that there should be a mechanism by which you can be open about it and still take part, while not getting a placing. If you are there to participate you should not be denied from doing so, but you should not get an official placing. Again, if you aren't there to race this shouldn't be an issue of course.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Nowhere does it say it is illegal to train on PEDs. //

Only if you later race, or plan to race..However it might be illegal(as In the general law) to be taking some drugs like a lot of people do here, without prescriptions from proper docs...

Not illegal, but prohibited. Out of competition drug testing is a thing.

What the OP describes is very black and white; it's cheating. these cheaters should be reported, their names made public, and if they either decline to submit to a drug test, or fail a drug test, should be banned for life.

There can be no room for interpritation, no wiggle room, and no exceptions.
Until PED use is treated like the cheating--fraud--which it is, it will continue.
And to Desert Dude's point: it robs other competitors of a fair chance to compete, and it robs others of a result which they earned with out pharma help, no matter what those results are.

TO THE OP: REPORT THESE CHEATERS. IT'S YOUR OBLIGATION. IT'S THE ONLY RIGHT THING TO DO.

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
So many people keep spouting on about TUE's, but the reality is they are very difficult to obtain, and almost never given out for testosterone, correct??

Except for maybe the RCTUE, which is presumably what would apply here. It's unclear on that one.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [allenpg] [ In reply to ]
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allenpg wrote:
Low testosterone in men as defined by the American Urological Association and Endocrine Society is <300 ng/dL (https://www.auanet.org/...deficiency-guideline, https://academic.oup.com/...e/103/5/1715/4939465). It's estimated about 1/3 of men using testosterone supplementation don't meet the clinical criteria. For women, the normal range is 15-70 ng/dL.

I had mine tested and it was 800 (age 51) which my wife said it explains why I chase her around a lot. Unfortunately for me she is a triathlete and she is FAST!
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [TriMom95] [ In reply to ]
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TriMom95 wrote:
In the last few weeks I've had 3 people tell me they have testosterone pellets under their skin given by their naturopath.

One has an autoimmune disease and this is one of the treatments, and the other two are women who are low normal for T in their late 40's. I know of 2 other women who have used them in the past (not sure about now) and are top 10 Ironman age group finishers. All are very nice people and say they feel so much better on these pellets and they don't want to podium or qualify for worlds.

I don't want to take away their health or happiness but what do you do with this information? Lock it away and be thankful they aren't in your age group? I like them all and this isn't a judgement on their character. I appreciate they feel healthier on these pellets, but to the best of my knowledge you can't race while using testosterone pellets. Also, if these are the next best thing why don't medical doctors prescribe them?

it's a side note, but i get a kick out of this line which almost always comes up in these discussions about amateur athletes in middle age who are doping.

"i feel sort tired" or "i don't recover as well from tough workouts" is cited as if it's some sort of pathology, and then people say with amazement, "gee, i feel better on these drugs!"

i mean yeah, you'd feel 'better' if you hoovered a rail of cocaine, too, and would probably recovery quicker or ward off injury better if you took EPO, anabolics, or HGH.

i think it boils down to people looking for some sort of quasi-medical justification for their behaviour. i'm fine with that too, as long as we're transparent about it.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
My comments were more towards the MOP/BOP participants whom are possibly expected to make a choice between taking a medication they or their docs feel they need, and participating.
For podium and WC spots, I absolutely agree those should be tested.

This is it right here. Unless youre actually competing to win something, the spirit of the rules really aren't intended for you. Someone taking a medication they need for an autoimmune disease in order to lead a healthy, longer life should not preclude them from participating in their hobby. It certainly doesn't impact the people finishing an ironman in 14 hours.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Hammer Down] [ In reply to ]
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Hammer Down wrote:
SBRcanuck wrote:
My comments were more towards the MOP/BOP participants whom are possibly expected to make a choice between taking a medication they or their docs feel they need, and participating.
For podium and WC spots, I absolutely agree those should be tested.


This is it right here. Unless youre actually competing to win something, the spirit of the rules really aren't intended for you. Someone taking a medication they need for an autoimmune disease in order to lead a healthy, longer life should not preclude them from participating in their hobby. It certainly doesn't impact the people finishing an ironman in 14 hours.

Well there is a difference between taking a medication you need to survive (which is why there is a TUE process) and taking something so that you can reverse the effects of getting older. You don't NEED to "feel better faster" after a hard workout.

That said, I am comfortable with the idea that people report these MOP/BOP dopers to the correct authority, and I am also OK with that authority basically saying "thanks for reporting, but in this case we aren't going to spend the resources to go after them".
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Hammer Down] [ In reply to ]
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Hammer Down wrote:
SBRcanuck wrote:
My comments were more towards the MOP/BOP participants whom are possibly expected to make a choice between taking a medication they or their docs feel they need, and participating.
For podium and WC spots, I absolutely agree those should be tested.


This is it right here. Unless youre actually competing to win something, the spirit of the rules really aren't intended for you. Someone taking a medication they need for an autoimmune disease in order to lead a healthy, longer life should not preclude them from participating in their hobby. It certainly doesn't impact the people finishing an ironman in 14 hours.

Where does the competition/participation line lie though? The post concerns people who are top 10, so should the spirit of the rules apply to them? Even if they are still just 'participating', it's fair to say that most of the people in the standings around them are not.

It's one thing saying it's OK if you do a 14 hour IM, but the case in question is very different.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [philly1x] [ In reply to ]
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Not illegal, but prohibited. Out of competition drug testing is a thing. //

Of course it can be illegal, all those trips to Mexico, or in the comfort of your home on the internet to buy your gear are absolutely illegal. And the point I was making in response to the OP was if you dont ever race(and thus not interfering with anyones place) and just train on drugs, then do we really care? I suppose if you joined USAT or any of the other organizations that control sport, you could be tested out of competition, so it could be a thing I guess. But if you "never" race, probably keeping your head low and probably not get whacked..Unless someone gets perturbed that you beat them on the Saturday training ride.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Denning76] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, I had no idea "naturopathic" kooks could prescribe medication, but apparently they can.

If you really need T therapy for non sports performance reasons, you shouldn't be banned from ever participating in athletic hobbies. But if you happen to win something significant, should you DQ yourself? I don't know. Maybe.

If you take 3rd in your age group at a local event, I wouldn't bother going through the trouble and embarrassment to DQ even though you cheated the 4th place guy out of their spot. But if you're gunning for a national age-group championship with others who are taking it very seriously, that's over the line.

Ryan Hall had to retire at a young age to go on T therapy because he couldn't get his low T treated and still legally compete. He now still does some events, but is not seriously trying to win anything, and obviously wouldn't do something that drug tests. Plus he's put on 60 lbs and fancies himself a weight-lifter now.

Some people are so casual about T therapy even though it's a big deal. My wife took me to her MD, who specializes in the kind of stuff that those of us in our 50s and 60s face. He teeters on the naturopathic kookiness edge btw. He discussed T therapy with me and he gave me some information on it. It's a big big deal. Pretty much once you start you can never go back. Turns out I didn't need it, but I would put it off until it's really critical before I considered it.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [TriMom95] [ In reply to ]
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If they insist on racing and say that they don't care about their place then ask them why they wear a timing chip. If they are going to cheat and have any desire to limit their impact on others then put the bib on and leave the chip in transition. This way they won't be in the results. They are in the race and might impact others' strategy but that can't be avoided if they insist on signing up. They have complete control over whether or not they show in the results.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [C2B] [ In reply to ]
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I think a good idea might be to alter the structure of races, allowing people to sign up for either a competition-class race or a grand-fondo non-competitive event. Grand Fondo division would allow drafting, no testing, basically fewer rules, more relaxed vibe and you would only get a finishers medal, post race (mid-race??) food and a bunch of memories. Competitive allows you to get awards for placing, WC qualification, official results, all the other perks.

If people go for that, it could also alleviate course congestion issues, which is a big problem.

I'd be happy with signing up for that, I couldn't tell you now where I placed or what my times were in any of my previous triathlons. And to not have to deal with "am I legal distance" for 2.5 hours would be well worth it...

Swimming Workout of the Day: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5784860#5784860;
Favourite Swim Sets: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...m.cgi?;post=5004659;
Unattainable goals for 2019/2020 season. https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6944848#p6944848
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [HardlyTrying] [ In reply to ]
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HardlyTrying wrote:
Some people are so casual about T therapy even though it's a big deal. My wife took me to her MD, who specializes in the kind of stuff that those of us in our 50s and 60s face. He teeters on the naturopathic kookiness edge btw. He discussed T therapy with me and he gave me some information on it. It's a big big deal. Pretty much once you start you can never go back. Turns out I didn't need it, but I would put it off until it's really critical before I considered it.

Those of us in their 50s and 60s face the natural effects of aging. They are artificially taking drugs and hormones to counter some of these effects. To feel better, get stronger and faster, recover better, etc. The PEDs work. They probably work even better on old person. You say it's ok if they are MOP, but pretty soon the MOP guy who isn't using ends up BOP, because everyone is doing it! So now he needs PEDs too. The young athlete has just as viable an excuse to take PEDs. To feel better, handle the high training load and recover better, etc. Anti-fatigue or anti-aging, it's all the same rationalizing BS. If you want to take this stuff for "health reasons" (what a joke), then fine... but don't race.

Ya, it's a big deal. There are negative long term side effects and dependencies. Same with nearly all drug therapies.

Docs are the pushers. There are no shortage of junkies.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Denning76] [ In reply to ]
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Denning76 wrote:
Hammer Down wrote:
SBRcanuck wrote:
My comments were more towards the MOP/BOP participants whom are possibly expected to make a choice between taking a medication they or their docs feel they need, and participating.
For podium and WC spots, I absolutely agree those should be tested.


This is it right here. Unless youre actually competing to win something, the spirit of the rules really aren't intended for you. Someone taking a medication they need for an autoimmune disease in order to lead a healthy, longer life should not preclude them from participating in their hobby. It certainly doesn't impact the people finishing an ironman in 14 hours.


Where does the competition/participation line lie though? The post concerns people who are top 10, so should the spirit of the rules apply to them? Even if they are still just 'participating', it's fair to say that most of the people in the standings around them are not.

It's one thing saying it's OK if you do a 14 hour IM, but the case in question is very different.

They do a good job of testing the people who are winning and placing high, that's who the protocol is designed to catch. Unless we want to add massive amounts of money to race entry fees to try to catch Betty for taking T and placing 912th.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [TriMom95] [ In reply to ]
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TriMom95 wrote:
So what would you do?? I'm wondering how common this is? I agree 100%. I told them it's illegal. They all said "I am not looking to podium". Then what?


Thomas Gerlach wrote:
TriMom95 wrote:
In the last few weeks I've had 3 people tell me they have testosterone pellets under their skin given by their naturopath.

One has an autoimmune disease and this is one of the treatments, and the other two are women who are low normal for T in their late 40's. I know of 2 other women who have used them in the past (not sure about now) and are top 10 Ironman age group finishers. All are very nice people and say they feel so much better on these pellets and they don't want to podium or qualify for worlds.

I don't want to take away their health or happiness but what do you do with this information? Lock it away and be thankful they aren't in your age group? I like them all and this isn't a judgement on their character. I appreciate they feel healthier on these pellets, but to the best of my knowledge you can't race while using testosterone pellets. Also, if these are the next best thing why don't medical doctors prescribe them?


Regardless of when they took them that doesn't me they haven't cheated. Enhancements to fitness and endurance have a last effect. You can't just take a substance that it is banned inside competition and compete clean. Well you can, but you are still cheating. Maybe they won't get an OOC test but that doesn't excuse their behavior.

Then you continue to train smarter and harder, and set PRs for yourself. You stay friends with them and remain happy for them that their health has improved and that they're happy. Or that's what I'd do anyway. I'm an outlier, but I really couldn't care less what anyone else is doing. Why trouble yourself with it?

---------------------------------------------------------------

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Serious question. You remember Blazeman. Did an IM while dying. If....IF, not saying anything in his system, but if he had meds in his system at the time to help him live longer when he rolled across the finish...……..was He a cheat, cheating anyone that finished in a position behind him?
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Once again, people with serious and real illness, get TUE's. He certainly would have gotten one, maybe he did, I dont know. He certainly could have gotten a retro one too, I hear that is a thing now.. So no, he was not a cheater. He was an inspiration to a lot of people, and brought some great awareness to his cause...

Not sure why a few of you are looking for the furthest outliers to somehow justify the majority. I understand AG doping is a touchy subject, especially amongst the older athletes either on, or looking at the longevity route...No one wants to feel they are a cheater, so the human psyche will do triple backflips to avoid going down that path...
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
TriMom95 wrote:
In the last few weeks I've had 3 people tell me they have testosterone pellets under their skin given by their naturopath.

One has an autoimmune disease and this is one of the treatments, and the other two are women who are low normal for T in their late 40's. I know of 2 other women who have used them in the past (not sure about now) and are top 10 Ironman age group finishers. All are very nice people and say they feel so much better on these pellets and they don't want to podium or qualify for worlds.

I don't want to take away their health or happiness but what do you do with this information? Lock it away and be thankful they aren't in your age group? I like them all and this isn't a judgement on their character. I appreciate they feel healthier on these pellets, but to the best of my knowledge you can't race while using testosterone pellets. Also, if these are the next best thing why don't medical doctors prescribe them?


it's a side note, but i get a kick out of this line which almost always comes up in these discussions about amateur athletes in middle age who are doping.

"i feel sort tired" or "i don't recover as well from tough workouts" is cited as if it's some sort of pathology, and then people say with amazement, "gee, i feel better on these drugs!"

i mean yeah, you'd feel 'better' if you hoovered a rail of cocaine, too, and would probably recovery quicker or ward off injury better if you took EPO, anabolics, or HGH.

i think it boils down to people looking for some sort of quasi-medical justification for their behaviour. i'm fine with that too, as long as we're transparent about it.

" hoovered a rail of cocaine," Completely off topic: lron_mike you've got a way with words. Masterpiece.

Karen ST Concierge
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [monty] [ In reply to ]
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By no means am I looking for a reason to justify the majority. Not at all. As I said before anyone with even a sniff of the top should be reported. Everyone knows the type walking around that they are bragging to qualify.....or as Ruff put it, taking shit to just slow the aging. That is B.S. ...I agree with that completely.

As I said for myself I just got tested and waiting for the third test on my T. Both myself and my Doctor in general do not believe in raising my T, since I have no other symptoms at this time......but I go in on June 13. If that they find that it is so low because of something else that needs treatment for health , should I just quit what am signed up for?
I have Telluride 38 Mile and Run Rabbit Run 100 then in Sept. On ultra sign up my projected time is AFTER the cutoff.
So if Doctor puts me on something, per this thread, I am a cheat.
I will NOT take anything for sport improvement. I am just an old fart with arthritis trying to stay active
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
So if Doctor puts me on something, per this thread, I am a cheat.

Yes, but as per the rules (not this thread). And very few doctors know or care about the rules about doping in competitive sports. A prescription is not a TUE.
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