It is a common belief that Lance initial cancer was from taking steroids.

I read that article as well, you can find it online if you look. Not only performance, but eyesight and a bunch of other side effects. Nature repeatedly shows us that things like this come at a price, though, and nobody really knows the price yet.

John

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In answer to the question about long term affects, i remembered this guy from my day and his battle. I also have 3 friends who were world class athletes who died of brain tumors, and now i have to wonder if there was any drug abuse there too. I find out all the time now about so and so was on drugs back in the day and i had no idea, so it would be really good to know if there was any conncetion. We also know lance had brain cancer too, and of course he was using the same cocktail as lyle here was minus the EPO. It is one of the problems of searching for all these swim deaths too, there are some factors we just don't and cannot know about the individuals that died. IF there was drug usage, it probably was not tested for, and even if so, was covered up by the families to protect the loved ones image, or keep inusurance companies from claiming some type of liability in an accidental death..



"Alzado was one of the first major US sports figures to admit to using anabolic steroids. In the last years of his life, as he battled against the brain tumor that eventually caused his death, Alzado asserted that his steroid abuse directly led to his fatal illness.[10] According to some reports, Alzado was using natural growth hormone, harvested from human corpses, as opposed to synthetic growth hormones. However, shortly before his death, Alzado recounted his steroid abuse in an article in Sports Illustrated,
“I started taking anabolic steroids in 1969 and never stopped. It was addicting, mentally addicting. Now I'm sick, and I'm scared. Ninety percent of the athletes I know are on the stuff. We're not born to be 300 lb (140 kg) or jump 30 ft (9.1 m). But all the time I was taking steroids, I knew they were making me play better. I became very violent on the field and off it. I did things only crazy people do. Once a guy sideswiped my car and I beat the hell out of him. Now look at me. My hair's gone, I wobble when I walk and have to hold on to someone for support, and I have trouble remembering things. My last wish? That no one else ever dies this way"

  
Slowtwitch has spoken.......

The point has already been made several times that it is not for us as athletes or for doctors to decide what should be allowed or not. The line is clear, whom it is drawn by is pretty clear, and that's it. The rules are there to be followed. N=1 anecdotes aren't worth anything here. Exemptions to the rules are granted through official channels (i.e the TUE), not by the court of public opinion.

Paraphrasing/quoting Devlin, you can lobby for change, not race, or race without complaining.

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The point some of are trying to make is when does a race become a race?When do we start wanting TUE's for every single participant in fun runs or big city marathons,triathlons,loppetts,mass bike rides and so on and so on.The vast majority of people in our sport as well as running are there just for fun as participants.Are we to say to everyone,give up your 5 hr marathons or get yourself a TUE?That is just madness!

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I've been posting so much on ST lately, I don't even know which one of my post's your replying to and I don't care to check. But, to reply to to your post in isolation...
You don't think posting here is lobbying?


That

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In theory, yeah. In practicality, never. It's like speeding. Everyone does it, few get caught.

What I am lobbying for is active testing of the top performers. USAT All American, Championship qualifiers (National/World), and Team USA AG members.

Do I honestly think that the 65 y/o guy that does a couple triathlons with his grandkids and is on T therapy so he can dance with Grandma is eroding the integrity of sport? Maybe in a minute fractional sort of way. But the guy that is on T, HGH, EPO to get that Kona slot or even just qualify for some sponsorships next year? Him most definitely. I don't think that active testing of the entire AG field is feasible, or even desirable. Check the top performers on a consistent, frequent and random basis, occasionally test the masses (The speed trap), and go from there. I think that is entirely doable, and worth advocating for.

John

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Lance did not have 'brain cancer'........... He had one type of cancer, testicular cancer, that metastasized.
And Alzedo's own doctor's have said from the beginning that there is no link between his brain tumor and steroid use.
Not defending drug use......but makes no sense to spread false rumors.
Given the sheer number of pro and amature athletes using testosterone, EPO, steroids (winny, anavar, deca, equipose etc etc etc).......I'd expected to have long seen wild breakouts of prostate cancer, brain tumors, etc within the athletic community.

Ya i see where some doctors are saying it was not the cause, but then most of the community of docs say they just don't know these days. When you here the quick side affect announcements after the androgel commercials, you can just make out that it may cause some cancers in the announcement. And it has been thrown around for a long time that HGH, T, steroids, etc. may be causing some cancers, or just making the grow faster, but i don't think it is settled at all one way or the other yet. I don't think there have been any long term studies that prove it one way or the other, but there is a hunch out there.

That is why i brought up my 3 friends who died of brain tumors, all world class athletes. Now i don't know if they used or not, probably never will know. But this is just my small circle, how many more are out there like that?

This same dynamic was out there years ago about heart problems in pro athletes, the docs though something was up for a long time, but no one was counting all the numbers. Now they know that we are about 3 times more likely to have heart anomolies than the average couch potato. Took a long time to know this, my long time personal doc always told be he believed it and did his own studies, as he had many world class athletes under his care in many sports. My "feeling" is that in the end they will prove that all these drugs folks are taking are going to have a direct link to certain cancers and increased likelyhood of getting them, but you are right in that it is not there yet..

I'm just glad i did not play around with them, and there is enough info out there right now to scare me from even thinking about it. Perhaps some time when they have nailed it down and I'm 80 years old, and the risk to reward ratio for living a higher quality of life without any chopping off of your longevitity is shown, i might consider it. But of course unelss the rules change, i will not be setting any 80 year old records.. (-;

I agree, not a huge amount of research available.

As the research currenty stands, I think the main risk is for those who have an indolent cancer and don't know it, prostate being a popular example. The testosterone will cause the cancer to grow sooner than it otherwise would have. Some folks put a positive spin on that......"found it sooner".....who knows...

I do think (predict) that the makers of Androgel with have huge lawsuits down the road......even if it is not from causing cancer, it may be from the side effects of taking testosterone and being a couch potatoe......increased cholesterol, increased BP, etc.

My understanding is that if it is included, it will be a specified substance, and further the limit that will be legal will be high, at least to start.

Body builders are looking at a much different type of use for the the T than a cyclist/triathlete. For triathletes, I would not be at all surprised if androgel was a good fix for shortening recovery periods if a person is doping.

I remember specifically a story in outside magazine where a writer who participated in cycling events where testing didnt occur went out and found how easy it was to dope. The bodybuilders told him to come back when he was looking for some real help (meaning the amounts he was taking for cycling were much lower than what hed have taken for adding a ton of bulk).

Yes, and look at the package warnings for most of these drugs. Even the tv ads usually take 30 seconds to tell you about the dangers. What the ads aren't saying is that for 99% or more males, T therapy is not a good idea or necessary. At my age, I'd be scared to death of taking testosterone unless my doctor made a strong recommendation for it. For the small percentage of people who NEED t therapy, I think USADA and WADA need to loosen up the rules and let them race. TUEs are too difficult, if not impossible, to get. If 100 guys a year got TUEs, for instance, what would be the harm? They might place higher? LOL! If I took t I MIGHT drop an hour off my anemically slow IM time, but I wouldn't be winning. I'd be better off doing the other cheating...DRAFTING.

Growing old and slowing down are inevitable, even if you are taking all these illegal drugs. A mature human will accept that 5 minute miles are more likely on the bike than while running at older ages! We are doing this for the health benefits, right?

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

For those of us arguing that side, it might be due to the fact that it has been generally accepted that it will cost $20,000USD to get that TUE. So for me, at 0 testosterone, yeah, there is a way to get a TUE but frankly it is impossible for me.

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Have you actually reached out to USAT to explain to them that you face financial challenges to the TUE and have a 0 testosterone level?

Well, IMHO, that isn't fair and it's one of the reasons Captain Queeg (TT) needs to go.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Except it isnt USADA making that rule, and blaming travis tygart for that shows how very little you know about the rules, who makes them, how they differ between sports, and what can be done to clean them up.

"An Old Man," when he was only middle-aged, could run 5:45 miles, but he did 7:00 miles, "a [mere] conversational pace" for him. Imagine what he was on!!

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nope, i really don't want to start it. :) Go figure. I'm still trying to figure out a natural way to do it.

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kathy_caribe wrote:

nope, i really don't want to start it. :) Go figure. I'm still trying to figure out a natural way to do it.

Do whatever you need to do to be healthy, and hopefully you can find a natural way. If you determine it can't be done a natural way, call USAT first. explain your situation, and listen to the information. You're not the first person to be confronted with this dilemma.

Or do what any sane person would do who is not obsessed over controlling someone else's body and don't call USAT. Take what you need to in order to live a happy productive live, enjoy competing in the events you want to and don't give a second thought to the pick6's of the world.

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Or follow this guys advice and break the rules of your sport. whatever.

You're an obsessive idiot who has helped create a culture on here where a middle aged mother with potential health issues is castigated for not getting approval from some entity to seek medical attention for her health issue while still participating in a sport she enjoys or where top level amateurs are accused of doping by middle of pack losers who don't want to put in work and instead want to blame something else when they get beaten. Your opinions and input on the subject are worthless and you lost all credibility as someone who has the moral or ethical best interests of anything in mind when you repeatedly lied to me over PM about your identity and accused me of being a liar. Stick with retweeting blurbs about LA.

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TravisT wrote:

You're an obsessive idiot who has helped create a culture on here where a middle aged mothers with potential health issues is castigated for not getting approval from some entity to seek medical attention for her health issue while still participating in a sport they enjoy or where top level amateurs are accused of doping by middle of pack losers who don't want to put in work and instead want to blame something else when they get beaten. Your opinions and input on the subject are worthless and you lost all credibility as someone who has the moral or ethical best interests of anything in mind when you repeatedly lied to me over PM about your identity and accused me of being a liar. Stick with retweeting blurbs about LA.

Wow, someone is cranky today.

First off; these are the rules we all agree to play by in sanctioned sport. That's the beginning and end of it.

Im not castigating anyone, I specifically told her she should do whatever she can to be healthy, but if she's going to race she should do so in accordance with the rules.


Your attitude towards me is both unwarranted and unreasonable vengeful. Show me where I've accused a single amateur (top of pack or otherwise) of doping; at most I've ever said the percentages are higher than people want to believe and folks looking into it have seen for themselves (read the posts above if you don't believe me).


I don't see anyone here ripping someone who beat them in a race as a doper, except those who actually have been caught doping (like Moats) and happen to have people here who raced against them. I think everyone who wants to be better or faster SHOULD work at it, as opposed to taking shortcuts, that's been the whole point of my discussions which I think clearly you've missed the point on.


My identity then as now is irrelevant; I had recently been harassed by a number of Lance devotees and wasn't in the mood to trifle further at that time. I apologize if I mislead you (frankly I believe I simply said who i am is irrelevant), but it still isn't any of your damn business. People seem to care here who someone is, but the facts a discussion is based on is all that's relevant IMO. I don't care who you are if the facts you present are accurate, then I'm willing to discuss things with a person, whether they are front or back of pack.