My understanding is that USAT or WADA is not granting a TUE for most of the applications these "low-T" doctors are considering.

To get a TUE you need to have a "T" problem -- period. Not low for your age. Not low compared to another guy out there racing or the guy out there winning.
There is definitely, as you can see from eric35-39 and trifreaks posts, a difference between where the market is going and where legal racing is going on this issue.

A lot of times you get a kind of Hegelian phenomenon with these issues -- thesis, antithesis, on to synthesis. This one looks like it going towards -- thesis, antithesis, hysteria.

I believe this has gotten to the point that USAT should probably put out some kind of warning to would-be or wanna-be T cheaters.

I think japryse was kidding. He wants caffiene banned. He's just saying that to set ppl off. Nobody can want caffeine banned.

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Speed Concept 9 (race)
Madone 5 (training)
Trek 1000 (rain/snow/sleet/monsoon)

Caffeine used to be on the banned list, above a certain level. Just google "Gianni Bugno caffeine". It's been off the list since something like 2005 or so.

Your argument that athletes should be allowed to bring their T levels up to 'normal' (presumably without being granted a TUE) of course opens up the unanswerable question of who gets to decide what is normal. If I train 25-30 hours a week and my T level is on the low side, then I should be able to "top up" to get to the level of everyone else.

As someone else points out, you are essentially then inviting everyone to do it.

People say ... well, no respectable doctor would do that. In answer to that, you have 2 of them who have even posted here! The problem is the medical community has the default viewpoint that you can solve most problems with medication.

It's also being considered for re-inclusion on the banned list (caffeine).

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Alright with this logic then those with heart problems taking anything that might bring them to a stable state simply need to find a new activity? Or those with any genetic default should stick to things that they can handle such as stitching or knitting or whatever they call ? I'm not saying that the abuse of testosterone or caffeine or any other drugs are OK because obviously it is not. This is a given. Playing with fire you get fire that's that. I get this part. I just cannot for the life of me see neglecting a medical condition is healthy or sporting or even ok for one to suggest to another.

If a man has CF, must take medicine daily for it including testosterone and other hormones just to participate life as an adult, why must he stop his life altering medication to make you feel better about yourself when god knows if 1/2 of you we're inflicted with serious illnesses would supplement. In promise you.

As I said, no abuse. Everyone knows this. It's common sense. But come on folks think about what you are saying and who you are saying it to. We are nothing but amateur adults playing a sport. We aren't college players, and most of you can't even top ten it n your AG. So, what is there to gain here by rationalizing one drug testosterone from another albuterol, caffeine, maca, cordyceps etc....? Performance enhancing is performance enhancing. Anything that might enhance your performance. Coffee. Ibuprofen. 5-hour energy. Cheating all the way around in my book.

Is testosterone readily available without a prescription? Coffee, ibuprofen and 5-hour energy are.

There's a therapeutic use exemption for those who can convince the governing body of a genuine medical need. Otherwise, no T. Deal with it.

There are many "amateur" adults getting a lot of benefits in money and products (shoes, supplements, bikes, etc) for AG competition. And you need to stop using the word "logic" in your answers.

The simple statement is, there are rules set up that govern how we compete in sport. If you don't like it, you have a few options. Lobby for change, stop competing, or compete without complaining.

Finally, when you list things like CF, and other afflictions like that, nobody is suggesting that they don't compete. All they have to do is apply for a TUE and provide medical evidence that any banned medications are necessary for quality of life. The problem with T is that the anti aging industry is cashing in on the fears of aging populations about growing old, and promising a "fix" even if their T is within normal range. They look at a 50 year old with T of 400, which is on the low side of normal, and say "Wow, you've got low T. Here's a scrip for androgel".

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Horrors!

Well as long as it's not banned at the 2-espresso-shot level, I'm good.

Exactly. What you can justify works for you. You are blessed to have no afflictions.

12 mcg/ml. About 6-8 cups worth. So, 2 espresso shots should be in the acceptable range. :p

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

What's the point of banning caffeine at that level?

At 6-8 cups worth, I'd be catatonic. Not much advantage to catatonia.

Why do you find it so hard to comprehend that people with legitimate afflictions can get permission to race with the correct Dr papers and TUE.? WHY?

Seems the argument usually goes (for age-groupers anyway) that it should be between the person and his or her doctor, and not the federation.

Which doesn't hold water because doctors cannot really make the decision on what's doping and what's not. (prescribe, prescribe, prescribe)

Let me get this right.
Low testosterone can be very bad for your mental and physical health
If you get help then get a TUE
You can't get a TUE
Do I understand it ?
My levels are ok so I don't have a horse in this race. Just trying to understand

I have read some on this . I still don't know if androgel can help performance. It seems like it may be a very low amount. Can someone with more knowledge tell us more about this? I went to a bodybuilding site and they said "hell that stuff won't do nuthin" I bet the cheaters are shooting higher amounts. JUST questions!!!!! Also whats with all the different kinds of test? There must be hundreds of them. I searched for steroids and endurance athletes and did not learn much.

Yeah, I'm really not super-knowledgable about this subject.

I just saw the general attitude here on ST about doping and cheating, and I saw all the signs at my gym, and commercials on TV, for "Low-T", and could see the train wreck coming.

I thought I would throw in my views given that at 23 years old I have been competing at a national level in road racing in the UK for the past 5 years. Last year I was Diagnosed with Hypogonadism which is a cause of Low Testosterone. After a year of tests appointments I was finally given a prescription for Testosterone gel just before Christmas.


I had to stop racing the middle of last year but I got so bad and my intentions were to get treatment get a TUE and then start racing. I can tell you now that Testosterone Gel, Injection or whatever are not how people make out, they don't make you super human unless you are pumping ridiculous amounts of the stuff in every week. The gel I am on is 2% gel and only a little bit of that gets absorbed which means that the amount you are getting in tiny. Plus it comes with many side effects which will effect everyone, especially those just using to enhance performance.


The 2 main ones being A) a complete shut down of you bodies natural production of T meaning that you will have to be on the stuff for the rest of you life and B) The conversion of Testosterone in to Estrogen which can cause all sorts of problems ranging from Man Boobs, increased fat storage, fatigue and Low Libido.


Bodybuilders who take testonsterone to get massive dont just take it on its own, they have to cycle with an Aromotase Inhibitor such as Arimidex in order to prevent the converstion taking place and the they have to taper off the T whist taking a other durgs to stop there balls from shining and losing all fertility due to there own production shutting off.


If you are considering taking T for either Low Testosterone or just to enhance your own performance then there are 2 things to consider. A) its not all its cracked up to be and B) there is a lot to know and lot of problems that can arise from this stuff.

But hey if you really want to the go ahead!

Dan

Ditto on the ineffectiveness of androgel for performance enhancement. A ~60 year old family member is using it because of low-T. It took many weeks for him to feel anything. What he feels is more energy, happiness, etc. If he were an athlete, I imagine his IM time would decrease by 5 min., at most. He's not walking around and picking things up to show off his new-found strength.

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Speed Concept 9 (race)
Madone 5 (training)
Trek 1000 (rain/snow/sleet/monsoon)

Just for some further perspective on that, 5 minutes over the course of an ironman is roughly proportional to 25 seconds over a 40k time trial and THAT is plenty to be the difference between the top of the podium and not being on it at all.

Agreed, but somebody starting with a T level of 200 is nowhere the podium which requires a time in the 9's. I just threw out 5 minutes off the top of my head bc a low-T guy is not going anywhere, a point somebody else made here.

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Speed Concept 9 (race)
Madone 5 (training)
Trek 1000 (rain/snow/sleet/monsoon)

Yep its fair to say that my competitive racing days are well and truly over, Testosterone replacement therapy will never get me back to my full potential as far as racing fitness is concerned, no where near in fact. It might get my T levels back in the right ball park but all the other negatives will far out way this in the long run.

Anybody who is trying to get TRT because the suspect they might have Low T and there doctor is willing to prescribe but untimely is thinking about the performance enhancements it might bring had better be aware of the drawbacks. It might bring some positives initially but in the long run you will seriously mess up your hormones.

Got ya, but there are plenty of docs who'll give this crap to someone who doesn't have low T to start with. People have a tendency to put doctors on pedestals. Many of them deserve to be. Some of them don't. All of them are mere humans. I used to go to a doc who was nothing but a drug pusher. No matter what ailed me, he had some new pill he wanted me to take. I knew it wasn't for my benefit as much as it was for his. One day I overheard him on the phone with what must have been a rep for one of the pharmaceutical companies and, well, after hearing that enlightening dialog, I've never been back to that drug dealer again.

The one article I read, in outside magazine some years ago, told a different story. The guy , who got all his drugs from a Dr, and was up front that it was for performance enhancement, noticed a big improvement. Basically from being dropped on rides to pushing the pace on those same rides.

Now he was using more than just T, but I don't see many people who go to Dr Feelgood stopping at just T.

That said if was genuining feeling rundown, irritable , whatever, all the time and Dr put me on medicine that significantly raised my quality of life, sure i would take it, I just wouldn't compete anymore.

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Styrrell

A questions to anyone, not a reply.

Has anyone read anywhere that all the hormones that the pro's have taken, ( Lance, Tyler, etc ) have had negative effects on them since they supposedly stopped using them? Are their nuts small now? Did their reg hormones kick back in? Are they still on the stuff to stay "normal"..

Thanks.

I doubt that info is out there. I suspect that most of the modern gys are fine. They had to take smaller doses to avoid detection. But there are plentyof stories from early uses, ie East Germans that have had horrific issues later in life. One cyclist, I think Cindy Ollivari (sp) was a heavy user had is pretty upfront about her health issues.

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Styrrell