I'm trying to picture how one would do that. I can't see any way of doing it and still being "fast".

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Breathing just slows you down. I'm hoping to eliminate it altogether some day. Think How fast I'll be then. ;)

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The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"

I do 2 right, 3 strokes, 2 left. Whatever that's called. Works great, especially longcourse. Great balance.

I briefly tried the 2:3 pattern the other day in the pool. I'll be fooked if I could figure it out. Now, I didn't really try too long either since I didn't want to waste too much time of my owrkout on a new breathing pattern, so take that FWIW.

Could be an interesting experiment in the off-season.....but the whole breathing on two successive strokes is very weird in the water.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

In all seriousness I'm a 1;3 swimmer and bilateral except during races where i tend to breath right only. I really don't want to give this a try as I'm slow enough as it is. What were the cited advantages?

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The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"

Have a search for Gary Hall swim threads from the last couple of years. He's a proponent of a 1:2 pattern and the likes of Monty can swim this way, taking a breath every stroke, then taking a cycle with no breath, then a breath every stroke. Seems to work very well for some people, not so well for others. At the very least those threads are entertaining reading.

This is the breathing technique I use to swim ~ 1:10/100 scm. Yes, if I do sprint sets I do the 1:3 or 1:5 (depending on distance). It's not that slow really. The thing most individuals do when breathing is to pause their stroke which is a no-no and more breaths = much slower times.

Just throw out all the naysayers, as the guy that now holds the 1500m world record also uses this pattern. It was not enough that gary hall and i used it, but kind of hard to argue with the best long distance swimmer of all time..

And to the guy that asked why, one word, oxygen...

Agree.
The "every stroke breathing" is the equivalent to the 5k run or bike hill climb breathing. At threshold+ it's all about feeding maximum rate of oxygene to the body.

The 2:3 pattern is not about going faster at a given effort, it's about being able to put more effort in.

I think you are talking about the 2:3 pattern

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Interesting. I noticed Helen Jenkins used this breathing pattern in the ITU race yesterday, but had never seen it before.

For me it depends on what I'm swimming. For short stuff like the 100 free I just hold my breath for as long as I can then breath to whatever side my closest competition is. For races like the 500 free I usually take the first 100 out pretty fast but I don't hold my breath that long since I still have to do another 400 so I probably breathe every 5 and then once I settle into a pace I will breathe 2:4 if I'm in an outside lane or 2:3 if I'm in the middle. It really depends on where the other people are as I breathe toward them to see where they are.

In a triathlon swim I generally breath every 5 strokes or 4 if the sun is in my eyes. If I'm swimming close to a bunch of people I'll breathe more often to see where they are.

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I like the 1:2. Helps keep a regular breathing pattern so I don't feel like I'm going into oxygen debt halfway through the swim. My swim coach in college actually said that bilateral breathing is over blown anyways.

I've also experimented with the 2:3 pattern - without much success. If it was anybody but Gary Hall I would say it is a crazy idea,
but if Dr Gary says it works, I tend to believe him. The WR adds a bit of credibility too.....

I have not tried it for a while - even 50M felt like being waterboarded - but since it is 'trending' up again, maybe I'll give it a shot.
.

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

Here is the deal, do you remember way back when you 1st learned to ride a bike? Or the 1st time you tried a unicycle? Very clumsy and just seemed impossible at the time, but in a very short time with a little practice, it just comes at some point. That is the way with this breathing pattern, you just have to do it going slow at 1st, do it over and over, and it will just hit you that now you can do it. Try and keep you head in a good line and take shallow breaths at first. If you watch Sun when he does it, you can barley see that he is even breathing, because he keeps everything in line and there is no head bobble.

I guarantee you that once you get it you will be grateful. It is like a bad bike position, we all have adapted to them in the past and thought I guess this is right? And then one day you make a change and you cannot believe what you did not know. You will hear this from a lot of folks, i get plenty of air in my own pattern, and that may be true if they are swimming a pace that only allows for that much air. But pump more air into the equation, and you can up the pace in distance swimming. If you are ok with your pace now and get enough air, then fine. If you are like me and are always training to get faster so that i can race faster, then give it another shot..

What is 2:3?

every 2 on 1 side then 3 strokes switch to other side, 2 and repeat?

I've played around with 2-1-2-1, 2 on 1 side quick switch and 2 on other side. It's really hard to stay coordinated!

Since Gary suggested this a while back, I tried it and it is all I use. Love it. Now, in a race depending on what I need, I might be doing 1:1 for a while, then back to 2:3.
If I do not have the air, I lose it in the swim.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think this makes sense...as does using a pull buoy when trying it. Last year I was getting some swimmer's shoulder on my left side 'cuz I was breathing only on my right. When I tried to breathe on my left, it was always a struggle. Tried it with a pull buoy for a couple of weeks and I can now swim breathing in either side with no issues. The pull buoy just gave me that little extra so that I didn't feel like I was drowning while working on a new breathing pattern.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Pretty interesting to watch his technique and patterns. So, basically, provided that your technique when breathing is good, once you have it down, the pattern (or just being able to breathe every stroke) will let you swim closer to your LT without that heaving oxygen deprived feeling that you get when breathing on a 1:2, 1:3 or 1:5?

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

That's exactly right, once you get it you will now be able to sustain a higher pace. You will still be gassed since that is the nature of going hard, the only difference is that now you are going faster for that same feeling.

But Mark, when I talk to folks about breathing, I say you need to have various tools in your bag for the race. At the start I might go our 1:1. Some clear water, I might go to 2:3. Hit some rough water, back to some 1:1.
The trick is how fast can I go, and not have air limit me like it used to do when I only had a 1:3 in my tool bag or a 1:2. Is this a fair way to comment to folks?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Like i said before, breathing will all depend on your effort. Yes, if you have all the patterns at your disposal, then you are in great shape. For me i never do anything less than a 1;2, usually when i'm drafting someone that is not stressing me too much. But as soon as i go to the lead or my pack mule speeds up, then it is all air all the time baby..

Do you spend more time with 1:1 or 2:3? The more air the better, but for some reason I thought some folks say 1:1 can slow you down?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The one that gary 1st talked about 2;3 i think they call it.

Thanks I find the 2:3 more comfortable than to try to stay with than 1:1 unless I really need air.

I am amazed how many I talk with who use just the standard 1:3. When that is all I had in my tool kit, I cannot believe how many swims at the start I would panic attack at.
Had the wife tell me to start out slow, but never worked. Once I watched the faster swimmers, I sure changed my tools quickly. No air, no speed.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

i'm always 1;2 racing. I can do bilateral but I haven't seen much difference oxygen wise and i'm slower cause I don't practice that way all the time so it just makes to stay at 1;2.

http://www.theraceclub.net/.../breathing-patterns/

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Running is a gift.

1:2 myself...I train bilateral, but race day I go back to old reliable in a crowd

2:3 revolutionized my ability to swim faster. Yea you may look like a dummy for awhile I sure did. If you just make up your mind that you will only breath 2:3 that particular day by the end of one session you will feel huge strides. I toyed with it for a few 50's and instantly felt SOOOO much better. It took about half a dozen sessions b/f I didn't have to concentrate on it and then the ability to 'turn up the volume' came into play.

FWIW I agree big time with a bit shallower breaths simply b/c you won't have time to exhale a typical full inhalation with this pattern on the consecutive breaths. If I can make this work anyone can.

Tried it this am during my long workout and felt like I couldn't breathe when I tried to go back to 1:3. I need to clean up my technique a little with the 2:3, but I can tell it's going to make a huge difference.

Oh my stroke felt like poop when I first started, but the extra O2 was pure heaven so I knew I was gonna stick with it. I just said to myself 'the sooner I make this priority number 1 the sooner I can get on with being able to put this extra O2 to use!'. I always defaulted to right side 1:2 breathing with really hard efforts, but easier stuff was 1:3. Now I don't have different patterns for different efforts it's 2:3 all the time.

Picking up 50 percent more oxygen off my 1:3 is just huge.

It has been a great help for me also, but I have used my 1:1 in a number off situations. Usually when I start a race and have gone out full tilt, I need the 1:1 to calm me down, then I get back into my 2:3 once I am into steady state. Just so nice to have the different tools. The folks with a 1:3 only just really have not put focus on improving swimming since no way can you race fast for very long only with a 1:3 for most folk.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

when breathing every two in open water, i start to drifting the opposite way to where i breath, so i'll breathe every two for something like 6-10 strokes, then i'll switch to the other side and repeat. Doing this i can keep a straight path and see who and what is on both sides. Breathing on both sides is a must or you'll wear out one side of the body in a race. There is my 12 cents in the matter (it's worth more than 2 cents)

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THIS IS SO WIZARD

today it worked...I can't say it is my preferred breathing pattern yet, but I was able to maintain a stroke rhythm
while breathing in a 2:3 pattern. I'm not convinced I am getting more air in - it seems more like puff-puff than the bellows action
I get with my 1:2 or 1:3...but I'll keep working at it. Maybe some 300 repeats will be long enough to measure a
difference in.

Another tool in the bag is always good to have. Now I just have to grow a foot and get some really bad teeth
and I'll be ready to challenge Sun.

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

Once you get the timing down, then you can take fuller breaths. If you get it in your head that you are going to get to breath right away like you would in running, then you will be able to exhale fully while your head travels from side to side, and you will get big breaths in.That is the real payoff with the pattern, just use the puffs to get the rhythm first, and then you can blast it in and out.. Until that point you are unsure about big breaths because it feels like you will swallow water, but that will pass with practice.

Wow, he teaches swimming with your head under water...

Not as a general rule he doesn't as in 'you HAVE to do this', but that is indeed how he swims in many of his vids. If you hit TheRaceClub site and watch his vids he has one on tweaking body position with variations in head placement. No one size fits all is essentially the message, find which one gives you the best body position, but not at the expense of raising it up adding drag. In point of fact 'drag' is the only singular theme you hear in all his instruction. 'Drag trumps power' and once I got that through my head swimming became a lot more fun.

I've been reading this thread with interest, and I tried 2:3 this morning. I can tell that I will have to ease into it. First, it was very chaotic. It was difficult to hold my stroke together and swim straight. Heck, it was tough to remember to breath all the extra times I got to breath. I think I got a little dizzy going side to side so quickly.

What are my arms doing? High elbow? Am I looking up? Who knows? I've got to take a breath again! (lol)

Anyway, I'm going to go 4:7 for awhile as I ease into 2:3. 4:7 is similar to 2:3 but instead of swinging your head around immediately to breath you do three strokes and then breath. I'm used to 1:3 so I actually am getting way more oxygen still. I'm don't want this to sound negative on 2:3 -- it's just going to take me awhile.

It took my whole 6k workout to really get it, but had it by the end. Did a bunch of switching between 2:3 and 4:7 too, and some 1:1 to get the head motion down. The comment earlier about having a bunch of tools in your bag really made sense to me too.

Yep, tools in the bag for the swim, bike and run are the weapons.

I do smile when I see some posts that some folks tried it once, it was hard, and that was that. Improving swimming skills is a NEVER ending game. When I started 16 years ago racing, I used a scuba snorkel for my first races.
Then I learned how to breath on one side. It took me a LONG time to learn to breath on my "bad" side, which is my strong side now. Took me a while to learn 2:3 but now it is a no big deal.

Bottom line is I am always trying to learn to improve my swimming. Now I am trying to keep the head down to reduce drag, but it is not easy. I continue to try and get a good catch from my left arm, but it wants to always be lazy. I try to stroke all the way through but again a work in process. I never am going to be a great swimmer, but I will continue to put in the time since at the shorter races I do, I see many who basically lose because they have a poor swim. So for the folks in my AG, swim training is a waste of effort.

When I do my ladder swimming for breathing, I sure quickly see when I am doing the 1:3 how I wasted so many years failing in swimming with this pattern. NO way can I do a 1:3 and be fast. On the other side, I have used the 1:1 a lot when I sprint at the start, or try to get back on the feet of a faster swimmer. No air, no speed.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I am not a fish nor an expert but I have gotten much more comfortable in the water swimming distance since I started working on cross breathing.

Oddly, working with a center snorkel and thus not "breathing" on either side seems to have helped me to learn to breathe on either side and to use different breathing patterns as needed - 1:2, 2:3 and 1:3.

Practicing "sneaking" each breath and the feeling of placing my chin on the recovery arm shoulder seems to help.

Lastly, the opposite approach assists as well - working on heads up water polo style swimming and sighting.

David K

Hmmmmm... now that Ithink about it the correctcount had to be 3:7.

Not sure where you're getting this from as I've watched 3 YouTube videos of Sun Yang's WR swim and he generally breathes to right on every stroke cycle, which would be "1:2". He occasionally breathes to the left to check on his competitors on that side. In his last 50m, which he swam in 24.2 (!!!), it was very obvious because he was really pulling hard and it was absolutely clear he was breathing every time on his right side until of course the last 7-8 m when he just gutted it out with no breathing.

So, I have yet to see any video where Yang consistently uses 2:3 breathing.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Sun Yang does not seem to cross breathe as he swim up and down the pool but I have observed him (on video) cross breathe into and off the wall at least half the time.

I imagine that it may be slower to cross breath but if it allows him or others to work the wall (the fastest part of each length) a little harder then it has to be a nice a net gain.

(Watched a Youtube clip and saw that he was taking 3 consecutive breaths off the wall...Right, left and right.... during his world record 1500.)

David K

Not sure where you're getting this from as I've watched 3 YouTube videos of Sun Yang's WR swim and he generally breathes to right on every stroke cycle,//

Like i said, he is so good at it that most do not even see it, even if they know it is happening. Funny when he set that world record, not even Rowdy Gains saw what he was doing. I only did because i'm so familiar with the pattern. HE does it into and out of just about every turn, the place where you need that extra air..

I looked at that video. Yang does whatever he feels like. Seems like he breaths 1:1 going into turns and coming out -- at least two breaths going in and three going out. Then he predominantly goes 1:2, throwing in 2:3 whenever he wants.

The amazing thing is that his stroke never waivers and his head is on a swivel. His head moves so little that, with the low resolution, it is difficult to see exactly when he does breath.

Ah, now I see the extra breaths into and out of the turns. Generally though, he's a committed right-side breather.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

YA, he is a right side breather, but i think he gets 4 to 5 extra breaths a lap from a standard 1;2 pattern. It is just about what i have evolved to myself, into and out of turns, and maybe once in the middle, but that is a yard pool. It is funny that old conventional wisdom always said do not breath our of turns, and that is all he does for several strokes. Back to my theory, it is more important to get extra air than it is to stay completely hydrodynamic. This now begins at a 100m and gets more useful the longer you go. Sun is just so good at it that his breathing drag is probably as close to zero as you can get too..

Ya, I was thinking exactly the same thing, about how the coaches always yelled at you if you breathed on the last stroke into or the first stroke out of the turn, and now the 1500m WR is set using exactly the opposite rules!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

FWIW, I change breathing intervals and sides (left, right, both) all the time depending on conditions. If the water is flat and I'm swimming without interference, I prefer to take 6+ strokes per breath and really fill/empty my lungs as well as focus on glide per stroke. Ditto when sprinting, which is perhaps a contradiction but its just what I prefer.

Interesting thread.

I have always bi-lateral 1:3, and taken an extra when I need. I tried the 2:3 and can't seem to get the flow. Something I will have to spend some time working on. I tried the above and it works great. Thanks.

Well, that is a very unusual pattern. In my experience most people have one side that is their natural side to breath on and so they breath most of the time to that side, especially when going hard. The last 50m of Yang's WR swim is a classic of a hard charging swimmer. He has increased his turnover rate such that his arms are just galloping across the water, and even though he's sprinting he's breathing every stroke on his right side, until the last 7-8 m when he just puts his head down and guts it out with no breaths to the wall. So, I would still argue that, generally speaking with exceptions, the majority of swimmers feel most comfortable when they breath every cycle of their arms, or "1:2" in shorthand.

On the other hand, if you like your pattern, that's fine for you. It would be way too little air for me.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I prefer to take 6+ strokes per breath and really fill/empty my lungs as well as focus on glide per stroke. Ditto when sprinting, which is perhaps a contradiction but its just what I prefer. //

People can get used to any pattern, but yours is limiting your speed by a lot..It's ok if that's what you want to do and feel comfortable, but you are giving up quite a bit of time to stay comfortable. Now if you are a 50 sprinter only, then disregard. (-;

Thanks for a cool thread. I gave this a try today for the first time and while I'm not 100% sold, I'm definitely intrigued. I was surprised how quickly it started to feel pretty normal to breathe 2:3. At first, I wasn't ready to breathe on the second stroke, but once I go the pattern down it started to feel pretty good. By mid practice, I used it for the first few strokes off the walls in a fast 400 and had one of my best 400 times, so at the very least it didn't seem to be slowing me down.

I will admit that my coach gave me some funny looks and asked when I had time to exhale breathing back to back strokes. I pointed out Sun's use into and out of walls in the 1500 and she agreed that she had noticed that, so that helped my case...

I will admit that my coach gave me some funny looks and asked when I had time to exhale breathing back to back strokes. I pointed out Sun's use into and out of walls in the 1500 and she agreed that she had noticed that, so that helped my case... //

For the past couple years or so i have had 3 coaches give me the same look, and ask what the hell i was doing. It has been so much fun to see them again and throw the world record into their faces. No more push back from them, and a little quiet actually. I think they really hate that in might have been right about this, and now they have to come to grips of whether they are going to actually teach it or not. It has been just like aero bars and the cycling community, they eventually came kicking and screaming to their use, but hated every moment of it..

Keep it up and it will just become 2nd nature very quickly. You will find that your long sets with short rest will get faster and faster.

Having just gotten into swimming recently I couldn't get comfortable with 1:3, feeling short of breath. I've been doing 2:3 lately to try to transition from 1:2 to 1:3. I'm glad to see there's some validation behind it as the 2:3 pattern feels natural now. Then again I usually revert back to 1:2 as soon as I enter the water for a mass start.

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The key is no way do I ever use the same breathing pattern for 100% of a race. There are different dynamics for different parts, start, rough water, passing, finish, etc. So having the tool for breathing ready for when you need it, from a 1:1 to a 1:2 to a 2:3, etc makes sense. Meaning do bikers only use one gear setting or effort for the entire bike? Swimming is no different.

I hate to see this being talked about since I know it was an advantage over folks who just stuck with the 1:3 the coach was telling them to use.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

[Keep it up and it will just become 2nd nature very quickly. You will find that your long sets with short rest will get faster and faster.[/quote]

This is what I am finding using the 3:2 pattern. I am not any faster (yet) but I am not any slower either. What is really noticeable is that I am much less winded and short rest intervals seem to hurt much less.

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Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

I tried this pattern of swimming the other day at the pool and I really like it...it took me about 10 minutes before I got into the rhythm and didn't feel "disoriented" by so much head movement but after that it really felt comfortable and I wasn't feeling the need for more air. I liked it...getting back in the pool this afternoon and going to try it again.

Totally agree. I tried 2:3 this morning in the pool. Wasn't as hard as I thought it would be to switch. Got a weird look from the lifeguard but I was on avg 5 secs faster per 100 scm then normal for that kind of effort. I felt better after the swim too. Didn't seem so tired. Could be placebo effect but I'm gonna keep doing it . I'm not fast in the water but I felt faster for sure.

How do you handle sighting with 2:3? Go with more of a lifeguard crawl style pop your head up?

Thanks!

Gary espoused this theory 2 years ago and I have been using is ever since. But I use it in two spots (primarily): After the initial sprint at the beginning of the swim and at the end of the swim when I am trying to get prepared to go from horizontal to vertical. Maybe with 25M to go. I really like the benefit (like monty said: oxygen).

That probably answers the sighting question.

I don't believe it's placebo, it's the real deal. Remember....you just doubled your O2 intake for every 3 strokes if you were using a 1:3 as I was. I was right at 4 seconds faster on 5 consecutive 100's scy on my 2nd day using 2:3. I'm able to go longer and harder than ever before. Too bad I only put it in play last fall:(

X2 I have been using the 2:3 for a while and I feel more fresher at the end of a tough set!

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

No different than if I am in my 1:1, 2:3, 1:2, etc. I tend to breath on my left, take a sight looking forward, then take a breath maybe on the right.
Since sometimes I need to sight per stroke, or at 10 strokes, one just needs to feel comfortable doing it when needed, not based on any specific pattern.

This goes back to like riding your bike. You will use a different gear, energy, etc depending on what you are doing, and you probably do not think twice about it.
Folks need to have these same tool options in their bag for swimming, and be able to use them without thinking about it. Takes practice, but you can get there.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Haven't tried it in open water yet. But I don't see how it would be any different with any other breathing pattern. I plan on doing an OWS on Saturday morning so I could report back. :)

Thanks for the thoughts (you too Eric) and perhaps you're right, I could speed up by changing breathing patterns. Just to add perspective though, I usually swim 14 -16 min /km (so average ~1.30/100m) in open water depending on the level of chop etc and am generally a FOP triathlete (on the swim leg) and MOP ocean swimmer. I could probably work more on technique but I have a pretty long history with swimming (especially compared to biking/running) and so tend to focus on getting some miles/intensity in whenever I can get in the pool. My big areas for improvement are on the bike & run. Nevertheless, all my years of training and racing have taught me to breath any which way, depending on the conditions.

I've messed around with breathing over the years.

I've even tried 1:1 but I end up getting too dizzy! :-)

I generally do 1:3, but do 3/2/3/2/3/2 if I up the pace a bit. In open water I'm perfectly comfortable doing 2/2/2/2 if the waves are an issue or even the sun in an early morning swim. Generally it's 1:3 with 2/3/2/3/2 only if I need a bit more or take on water.

I short swims if my timing is off at the wall, I'll do 3/1/1 into the wall, rather than 3/2 and suffering on the turn and popping up early for a gasp after the turn.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"