My name is Andrew and I am college swim coach. I am also a USAT Level I Coach.
I love working with triathletes to help them improve their skills in the water, particularly those without a swimming background, and without access to formal in-person coaching.
If you have questions about how to improve your skills in the water, please shoot them my way in this thread.
I'd be happy to help to the best of my ability.
The more information you provide about your context (years swimming, approximate swimming speed, etc), and the more specific your question is, the more effectively I'll be able to help you out.
My name is Andrew and I am college swim coach. I am also a USAT Level I Coach.
I love working with triathletes to help them improve their skills in the water, particularly those without a swimming background, and without access to formal in-person coaching.
If you have questions about how to improve your skills in the water, please shoot them my way in this thread.
I'd be happy to help to the best of my ability.
The more information you provide about your context (years swimming, approximate swimming speed, etc), and the more specific your question is, the more effectively I'll be able to help you out.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Andrew
I've always swam, (was the fast kid in the slow lane), technique was never 100%, but I've been working on that. I've noticed my lats and triceps are getting a bit sore, like I'm now using different muscles groups. This is a good thing isn't it??
My name is Andrew and I am college swim coach. I am also a USAT Level I Coach.
I love working with triathletes to help them improve their skills in the water, particularly those without a swimming background, and without access to formal in-person coaching.
If you have questions about how to improve your skills in the water, please shoot them my way in this thread.
I'd be happy to help to the best of my ability.
The more information you provide about your context (years swimming, approximate swimming speed, etc), and the more specific your question is, the more effectively I'll be able to help you out.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Andrew
Hi Andrew, I am a newbie swimmer: 2 years of training now. My times are around 1:45/100m for threshold, my 100m pb is 90secs. I have been steadily improving. I am having trouble with my kick being wide and splaying, I’m not crossing over with my stroke so not sure what’s causing it. Been thinking that perhaps it’s to do with my rotation? Any tips on what to mainly focus on as an improving swimmer?
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I'd like to have a simple and clear explanation of what the kick should FEEL like. I think I tend to lock my legs more than I should, causing my quads and calves to be "tense". I am working on relaxing the leg muscles and being more "free".
Also, my kick sucks. If I use the little board to work on kicking only it takes me about 45 seconds to go 25 yards, and my muscles are burning. I feel that isn't what it should feel like.
Lastly-how should my head be in the water? If I stand up straight (on land, walking as most humans should), is that the exact position I should have in the water? I feel like my head is slightly tilted up (kinda like in aero position on bike). When I attempt to lower it, I feel like I am dropping it too much.
Yes. I would say so. If you're shoulders and your biceps are feeling the most fatigue, you're doing the work with the wrong groups.
Lats are definitely where they work should be taking place. Those are the big, strong muscles that can handle the workload.
Triceps to a little bit lesser extent. However, you're good if it's triceps AND lats. If it was just triceps, I would think that you're trying to use arms a little too much.
Hi Andrew, I am a newbie swimmer: 2 years of training now. My times are around 1:45/100m for threshold, my 100m pb is 90secs. I have been steadily improving. I am having trouble with my kick being wide and splaying, I’m not crossing over with my stroke so not sure what’s causing it. Been thinking that perhaps it’s to do with my rotation? Any tips on what to mainly focus on as an improving swimmer?
Thanks!
Good question. That type of leg action is almost ALWAYS a symptom of some other issue. In almost every single case, if you're legs aren't doing what you want them to do, it's a SYMPTOM and not a CAUSE. And that cause is probably creating other problems as well.
It's a good though that your are crossing over. That would probably do it. If that's not the case, you are probably over-rotating in 1 of 2 ways.
1. You are stabbing the water when your recover, and really driving the hand into the water, either down, across your body (different from crossing over as you can still pull straight back from this position), or both. This will cause you to over-rotate, and the legs will splay as a result.
2. You are really rotating a lot to breathe. This can happen with some regularity, particularly in individuals that aren't super stable in the water.
Here's an exercise you can try. Go into the water and curl up in a ball. You'll float (everyone does). Just hang out there for 10 seconds or so. FEEL the support of your lungs holding you in the water. Now swim a 25 feeling the same support from your lungs. That's what it feels like to be balanced in the water. You need to maintain that sensation at ALL times, ESPECIALLY when you breathe.
The legs splaying is to combat a lack of stability. Stability comes from the lungs.
Let me know if that make sense and how that goes. If you can't figure out the exercise, I can send you a link to a video.
The short answer is if you can't swim 100 yards/meters in less than 1:20 (and your threshold speed is necessarily slower than that). Of course, this isn't a hard and fast rule and it depends on age.
If you can't achieve those speeds, your problem is a technical one, not a fitness one. All the fitness training in the world will only result in marginal improvement, whereas improving your skills can result in substantial improvements.
If you can swim marginally faster than that, I would focus on improving your skills and working learning how to sustain those skills under some stress (ie training).
If you can swim significantly faster than that, you can focus more on 'training' as you would with running or on the bike.
IMPORTANT- 'Working on skills' doesn't just mean doing drills. It means doing certain exercises that are going to make a BIG difference in your skills that will improve your speed AND taking what you've learned into regular swimming. If you just do 25s of typical drill work, that probably won't be real effective. You need to get a feel for what needs to change, and then you need to execute that while SWIMMING. Of course, if you're spending all your time at threshold, it's going to be hard to swim differently. Once you've made the change, have at it with threshold.
If you have more specific questions about what I wrote, fire them my way.
I'd like to have a simple and clear explanation of what the kick should FEEL like. I think I tend to lock my legs more than I should, causing my quads and calves to be "tense". I am working on relaxing the leg muscles and being more "free".
Also, my kick sucks. If I use the little board to work on kicking only it takes me about 45 seconds to go 25 yards, and my muscles are burning. I feel that isn't what it should feel like.
Lastly-how should my head be in the water? If I stand up straight (on land, walking as most humans should), is that the exact position I should have in the water? I feel like my head is slightly tilted up (kinda like in aero position on bike). When I attempt to lower it, I feel like I am dropping it too much.
Thanks for your help!
1. The kick should be light, almost a flick. I can give you some other ways to think about it, but I hesitate to do so because I don't think that's your actual problem. Read the rest of my response, and if you still want more on the kick, let me know and I'll provide it.
2. I wouldn't worry about how bad your kick is. Save your legs for race/training on land. You want to be able to stay balanced on the surface WITHOUT having to kick to keep your hips up (see below). This is faster and more efficient, and it will save your legs. If you're racing 200m or shorter in a pool, that's different. But you're not.
3. You basically want it like it should be on land. MOST swimmers, and triathletes in particular, need to press their head and chest into water to be in the right position. It's not just the position of the head. You have to actually PRESS into the water. That keeps their hips and takes the pressure off their legs. Whenever people actually get into a position that puts them in a good position, they ALWAYS say it feels like their head is underwater. It's not. It's right at the surface.
Perform the ball float exercise i referenced a couple posts earlier. I had someone do it over the weekend. He responded-
1. I feel like my head is underwater (it wasn't) 2. I don't have to kick for the first time in my life! (He was in his 50s)
If you're not sure, have someone film it with your phone. The back of your head will probably be right at the surface. If it's 6 inches beneath the surface, that's definitely too much.
Hope that helps.
Let me know how it goes, or if there is anything else I can help you with.
Yes. I would say so. If you're shoulders and your biceps are feeling the most fatigue, you're doing the work with the wrong groups.
Lats are definitely where they work should be taking place. Those are the big, strong muscles that can handle the workload.
Triceps to a little bit lesser extent. However, you're good if it's triceps AND lats. If it was just triceps, I would think that you're trying to use arms a little too much.
Sounds like you've made a positive change. Nice work!
On that note, I swam as a kid, was a breaststroker, gave up around 17. I'm usually near the front of the age group races I swim in, albeit not up with the leaders swimming sub 20 for 1500 or sub 50 for ironman. as a kid i could swim 2500m or so for a 30 minute test, but didn't really compete in long distance free. best times are around just over 20 for 1500 in a triathlon and 52 for ironman.
Since getting back into swimming after covid lockdown, I was swimming the slowest and the sorest I have felt. My shoulders always felt sore and fatigued and I felt like I was really 'short' in the water. In the last 2 swims, I focused on trying not to 'feel' my arms as I recover them over the water and keeping my hands 'soft'. i've been told in the past I lead with my biceps whilst doing free. Since focussing on trying not to feel my arms as I recover them, I've found I am not getting sore shoulders and not fatiguing anywhere near as quickly.
Is this the right correction to make for sore shoulders and arms doing free?
Hi Andrew, I am a newbie swimmer: 2 years of training now. My times are around 1:45/100m for threshold, my 100m pb is 90secs. I have been steadily improving. I am having trouble with my kick being wide and splaying, I’m not crossing over with my stroke so not sure what’s causing it. Been thinking that perhaps it’s to do with my rotation? Any tips on what to mainly focus on as an improving swimmer?
Thanks!
Good question. That type of leg action is almost ALWAYS a symptom of some other issue. In almost every single case, if you're legs aren't doing what you want them to do, it's a SYMPTOM and not a CAUSE. And that cause is probably creating other problems as well.
It's a good though that your are crossing over. That would probably do it. If that's not the case, you are probably over-rotating in 1 of 2 ways.
1. You are stabbing the water when your recover, and really driving the hand into the water, either down, across your body (different from crossing over as you can still pull straight back from this position), or both. This will cause you to over-rotate, and the legs will splay as a result.
2. You are really rotating a lot to breathe. This can happen with some regularity, particularly in individuals that aren't super stable in the water.
Here's an exercise you can try. Go into the water and curl up in a ball. You'll float (everyone does). Just hang out there for 10 seconds or so. FEEL the support of your lungs holding you in the water. Now swim a 25 feeling the same support from your lungs. That's what it feels like to be balanced in the water. You need to maintain that sensation at ALL times, ESPECIALLY when you breathe.
The legs splaying is to combat a lack of stability. Stability comes from the lungs.
Let me know if that make sense and how that goes. If you can't figure out the exercise, I can send you a link to a video.
Great, thanks. I treid in the other thread but didnt get a comment so I'll try here.
I'm a good swimmer for triathlete (27-28m for half, 57-58 for full AG50), but obviously far away from being a swimmer (also not the goal). I also think I'm quite a single speed swimmer, as mentioned full IM at 1.30/100m pace and my best 100m SCM with pool start is 1.12
I have few questions. I feel the difference between a good and bad day is relatively large and I really cant figure out where it comes from. So:
- Based on the videos below, what do you think is the first thing that might fall apart in that stroke - What is the first low hanging fruit to improve and how
On that note, I swam as a kid, was a breaststroker, gave up around 17. I'm usually near the front of the age group races I swim in, albeit not up with the leaders swimming sub 20 for 1500 or sub 50 for ironman. as a kid i could swim 2500m or so for a 30 minute test, but didn't really compete in long distance free. best times are around just over 20 for 1500 in a triathlon and 52 for ironman.
Since getting back into swimming after covid lockdown, I was swimming the slowest and the sorest I have felt. My shoulders always felt sore and fatigued and I felt like I was really 'short' in the water. In the last 2 swims, I focused on trying not to 'feel' my arms as I recover them over the water and keeping my hands 'soft'. i've been told in the past I lead with my biceps whilst doing free. Since focussing on trying not to feel my arms as I recover them, I've found I am not getting sore shoulders and not fatiguing anywhere near as quickly.
Is this the right correction to make for sore shoulders and arms doing free?
2500m for a T-30 is pretty good. Nice.
As the name implies, the 'recovery' is where certain muscles have the opportunity to recover. The less effort you can put into the recovery, the better. As you say, staying 'soft' is a create way conceptualize moving the arm without tension. If you don't 'feel your arms', you're probably staying relaxed and using less effort, which is a good thing. That will allow you to get some rest within each arms stroke. You don't want to do any work you don't need to do.
If you're not getting sore shoulders and not fatiguing nearly as much, you should definitely keep doing what you're doing. It's working, so don't mess with it.
As far as being 'short' in the water, I would recommend that anyone get consistent with counting your strokes whenever you're in a pool. It's a great indicator as to how efficient you are being relative to what you usually do. So if you usually take ~15 strokes per lap and all of a sudden you're taking 18, something has changed for the worse. If you were to feel like you're swimming short and you're still taking your normal 15 strokes, you'd know that the feeling of being short is something else you'd have to address.
I wouldn't necessarily try to change your stroke counts. Just like keeping track of your heart rate and speed are valuable in all aspects of training, when something changes unexpectedly, you can do something about.
Speed indicates your performance. Heart rate indicates the physical cost of the work. Stroke count indicates how well you're swimming relatively to normal.
Great, thanks. I treid in the other thread but didnt get a comment so I'll try here.
I'm a good swimmer for triathlete (27-28m for half, 57-58 for full AG50), but obviously far away from being a swimmer (also not the goal). I also think I'm quite a single speed swimmer, as mentioned full IM at 1.30/100m pace and my best 100m SCM with pool start is 1.12
I have few questions. I feel the difference between a good and bad day is relatively large and I really cant figure out where it comes from. So:
- Based on the videos below, what do you think is the first thing that might fall apart in that stroke - What is the first low hanging fruit to improve and how
I know videos are not optimal, but best I can do. Thanks a lot!
Here is my take based upon what I can see.
Overall, you look good. Body position looks good. You're level in the water and you're not fighting to stay in position. That's a big dea for most.
From what I can tell from this angle, the arm action underwater isn't obviously problematic. It's hard to tell what's really going on without a head-on shot.
Two potential issues I see-
The breath is a little late, slow, and it pulls you out of alignment. It's more noticeable on the faster swim, so my guess is that it tends to get worse when you get tired or swim harder. If you're having a bad day, you're probably going to swim harder:).
This causes problems because it will disrupt your alignment horizontally (head goes up=hips go down) and laterally (head swings to side the shoulders will go with the head and the hips go the other way). All of a sudden you're creating more drag. You can see there is a bit of a wiggle to the stroke.
In addition, when the breath happens like that, you'll notice the left arm drops pretty quickly and you're halfway through the stroke before the head gets back down into the water. That means the arm isn't going to be doing what it needs to do for much of the stroke. The arm does that to attempt to create stability that is lost when lifting the head (pressing head/chest into the water creates stability).
What may be happening is that when you're struggling, you pick up the tempo and this makes the breath worse and the technique starts to fall apart a bit.
I think the biggest opportunity is to fix the breathing. Put a paddle on the top of your head and swim with it. Don't let it come off when you breathe. Once you can do this slow, start speeding it up. That will help you learn how to keep the head more stable.
Another observation which is a little less straightforward. You may getting a little ahead of your rotation with your arms strokes. You swim with pretty high tempo (which is no problem), but you might be pulling a little early. It probably gets worse when Try this exercise and see if you can get the same connection when you swim regular freestyle. It's NOT about more rotation, just better timing. It may help.
However, breathing is probably a bigger issue AND easier to address.
Lastly, moving forward, start paying attention to your stroke counts. You don't need to change them, but see what happens when you have your good days versus your bad days.
My guess is that you are doing one of two things. You are picking up the stroke rate and taking extra strokes, causing you to slow down. OR you're really slowing your stroke rate down and keeping the stroke count the same. If the stroke counts are higher on the bad days, you're getting inefficient. If stroke counts are the same, you're tempo is dropping off for some reason.
Why do the bad days happen? My guess is that it's just fatigue which makes some small technical issues worse.. I can't really tell how old you are in the video. If you're older, you may just need more rest between harder training sessions. Not what anyone wants to hear, but it happens to us all:).
Hope that helps. Let me know if you have follow-up questions.
Thank you very much, very kind of you to take so much time to answer in such detail.
I was a bit concious of the slow/late breathing, and sometimes tried to do it with bit more tempo, but it seems to be something I need to focus on for it to happen.
The drill with paddle on the top of my head, does it really stay there while breathing? Having not tried, I would guess head turns too much for it stay?
3. You basically want it like it should be on land. MOST swimmers, and triathletes in particular, need to press their head and chest into water to be in the right position. It's not just the position of the head. You have to actually PRESS into the water. That keeps their hips and takes the pressure off their legs. Whenever people actually get into a position that puts them in a good position, they ALWAYS say it feels like their head is underwater. It's not. It's right at the surface.
I've never run into that bit of advice but I'm going to give that a go tomorrow when I'm in the pool. Anything else you can say about this for somebody trying it for the first time? I'm pretty sure this is a big issue with my own position.
Thank you very much, very kind of you to take so much time to answer in such detail.
I was a bit concious of the slow/late breathing, and sometimes tried to do it with bit more tempo, but it seems to be something I need to focus on for it to happen.
The drill with paddle on the top of my head, does it really stay there while breathing? Having not tried, I would guess head turns too much for it stay?
The breathing is a little slow and late, but the BIGGER problem is that you life the head and pull it to the side. THAT is what really disrupts your alignment.
It will really stay there, IF you breathe correctly:). It probably won't stay during turns, although I have seen some people pull that off. However, I wouldn't even worry about the turns.
Follow this progression-
1. Figure out how to do the drill at ANY speed (just 25s) 2. Figure out how to do the drill with increasing speed (just 25s). 3. Figure out how to do the drill FAST (just 25s) 4. Transition into more training where you go something like
3 rounds 2x25 Paddle cap freestyle with 10 seconds rest; STRONG effort 4x100 Threshold effort with 20 seconds rest; breathing the SAME as when you had the paddle on 50 EZ
This is just a sample set. Adjust the volume and speeds accordingly depending on how you train. You can use the same idea and do any type of training after the drill.
Once you can do this sort of training and still breathe really well, you've fixed the problem.
**For anyone else reading this, there is NOTHING special about this specific set. However, the CONCEPT of integrating skills into training is really important. Most people stop after step 1. YOU NEED TO PROGRESS TO STEP 4 IF WANT REAL TECNICAL CHANGE THAT ACTUALLY IMPROVES PERFORMANCE!!!*
I've never run into that bit of advice but I'm going to give that a go tomorrow when I'm in the pool. Anything else you can say about this for somebody trying it for the first time? I'm pretty sure this is a big issue with my own position.
Thanks for doing this!
Here's a video explaining the exercise in a little more detail.
In terms of what you want to feel, you'll feel SUPPORTED when it's done well. The ball exercise is useful for feeling the total support. The elevator exercise is useful for FINDING the support when you swim. As you go from high to low, you should pass through the sweet spot. If you go slow and stay patient, you should find it.
Alternate the two exercises until it clicks.
It's not necessarily a hard skill to learn, but it's pretty foreign to what people have experienced in the past. Stick with it even if it doesn't happen right away.
Some ideas that might help-
LEAN into the water with your body Try pressing the head, the chest, or both. When done well, you'll feel pressure on your face and upper body, and lightness in your lower body.
Everyone's a little bit different, and what you have to do can be different for different people.
The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).
Thoughts?
---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
1) Should I breathe to the left or to the right from your coaching perspective?
2) How often should I implement breathing to the wrong side?
3) What should be my technical focus based on the video?
Background: started swimming at 28/29 (2016/2017), Had a break due to injury November 2017-april 2018 and due to covid September 2020 - august 2021 (pool closed). Had a pb of 10x50m @ 1.00 averaging 45sec and 1.06-1.08-1.05 in my ironman swims until august 2019. Worked a year with a tri coach and was able to break 30sec for 50m (scm) and go 30.0 (LCM). I have always preferred breathing to the left but after the covid break it has started to feel good breathing to the right.
I feel that the recovery with my right arm gets somewhat tight when I breath to the left. And the breathing drill you prescribed to someone else probably applies to me as well
The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).
Thoughts?
In trying to understand the muscle engagement, would this be similar to doing a shallow "plank" style effort on dry land, in which you slightly lift the legs off the ground? Would that be a good way to feel that muscle engagement (with the understanding that the water will aid in buoyancy)?
The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).
Thoughts?
In trying to understand the muscle engagement, would this be similar to doing a shallow "plank" style effort on dry land, in which you slightly lift the legs off the ground? Would that be a good way to feel that muscle engagement (with the understanding that the water will aid in buoyancy)?
Exactly that. Lie on the ground on your stomach, stretch your arms in front of you ("superman"), and lift your straightened legs. It is hard on land, but easy in the water. Feel those muscles, as they are what you engage. You got it. ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"