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Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke
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I am trying to work through a swim program. My workout for last week called for drowning practice (swimming with an ankle band... thank goodness my pool isn't 26 yards long, or else the lifeguard would have had to make a rescue). This week it's suffocation, apparently. One of the sets calls for 200 yards breathing every 5th stroke. I really like air, a lot. I realize that in a tri I will not be breathing every 5th stroke, but my OCD makes me want to do the workouts exactly as prescribed.

My question, to try to get through breathing every 5th stroke, do I try to speed up my stroke so I can get breaths more often? Or do a relaxed stroke to try to consume less oxygen? Thanks.
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [2wheels] [ In reply to ]
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breathe every 2 strokes, sometimes breathe every 3. hypoxic training isnt the best.
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [2wheels] [ In reply to ]
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You just have to slow way down and decrease you need for oxygen. Speeding up your stroke rate will just make it worse and you will have to slip the water in order to goe easier with more strokes. Just think of it as an easy drill, maybe put in a buoy if you are still having trouble..
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [2wheels] [ In reply to ]
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I always had better luck with slowing it down a little so the stroke felt more relaxed.

While hypoxic sets don't do anything for you from a physiological point of view, they're not a bad way of working on the mental side of learning to swim confidently while uncomfortable.
Last edited by: FLA Jill: Jan 31, 11 15:13
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [2wheels] [ In reply to ]
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2wheels wrote:
I am trying to work through a swim program. My workout for last week called for drowning practice (swimming with an ankle band... thank goodness my pool isn't 26 yards long, or else the lifeguard would have had to make a rescue). This week it's suffocation, apparently. One of the sets calls for 200 yards breathing every 5th stroke. I really like air, a lot. I realize that in a tri I will not be breathing every 5th stroke, but my OCD makes me want to do the workouts exactly as prescribed.

My question, to try to get through breathing every 5th stroke, do I try to speed up my stroke so I can get breaths more often? Or do a relaxed stroke to try to consume less oxygen? Thanks.

I built up to breathing every seven strokes which is very hard but the key is to slowly blow bubbles out. Much of it is mental but a relaxed stroke is important. One of the Master swim coach says he builds up to breathing every eleven strokes
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [2wheels] [ In reply to ]
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I like air a lot too.

If you want to work on your stroke play with a snorkel rather than try to drown yourself :)

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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [2wheels] [ In reply to ]
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I do breathing drills where I go 5 strokes between breaths and then 6 strokes between breaths.

It's helped in the fact that now during normal warmups and drills a 4 stroke breath is very relaxed. I usually start intervals on a 4 stroke breath and then I can go to a 3 stroke breath and feel like I'm really getting a lot of air.

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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [2wheels] [ In reply to ]
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when I first did these I thought I was supposed to breathe every fifth cycle. That didn't go well for me.
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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MarkyV wrote:
I like air a lot too.

If you want to work on your stroke play with a snorkel rather than try to drown yourself :)

I've seen MarkyV race; do whatever the hell he says!
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [2wheels] [ In reply to ]
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Eliminate any unnecessary movements. Make it extra smooth. No hitches or dispy dos in your recovery extension or pull.

Other than just the mental parts that Jill points out, this is the main aspect of it.

I also sometimes use this to work on strength and pull technique, like using a snorkel without having said snorkel.
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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SeasonsChange wrote:
breathe every 2 strokes, sometimes breathe every 3. hypoxic training isnt the best.

I disagree... Monty has the right idea here

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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [wankers] [ In reply to ]
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We used to do a ton of hypoxic ... usually 3/5/7/5 or 3/5/7/9 either by 25 or 50. 3/5 by stroke is nice

___________________________________________
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [2wheels] [ In reply to ]
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Don't change your stroke to make the breathing work.

1) Breathe out harder than you think when your face is under water. Force the air out of your lungs so when you turn your body to breathe, you are only taking in air. You don't have time for the in and the out.

2) Build up to 5. One length 3, one 4, one 5, and then repeat.

3) I suggest holding your breath on strokes 1 and 2, breathe out HARD on 3 and 4, and then turn your body on the 5th stroke for that much needed breath of air. That helps with rhythm and getting into that groove and pattern.
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [2wheels] [ In reply to ]
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I would try to add some dps to slow your stroke down. At the same time breathing every 5th is a waste of time.


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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [Cheddar] [ In reply to ]
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I'm gonna try this myself

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, covered in scars, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'hell yeah', what a ride.
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [curtisboyte] [ In reply to ]
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You guys have got it easy!

We've done hypoxic breathing to failure in a 50 metre pool!

I got to 11 before I had to start over again, nine was doable each time. We often swim breathe every other stroke for 50m then breathe every fifth. for 4x100m.

I've found that I'm more relaxed in races, but that might also be because we swim 25 to one lane and as many people with a foot on the line at the start.
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [2wheels] [ In reply to ]
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What Marky V said:


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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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You just have to relax, keep you kick minimal if needed. Keep you stroke long and smooth but don;t pull dso hard.

When you ready, try 3-5-7-3 and repeat it twice for a 200.

Although I cheat a little, I have a high stroke count.

But a good swimmer can easier swim 25y no breather on repeat intervals. Most can also do at least a 50y no breather at a relaxed pace.


Are you holding you breath a little between strokes, or breathing in and out somewhat evenly like you cycling or running? I was taught years ago to hold my breath and exhale as late as possible just before turning my head/rolling to breath. It increases your bouyancy, and keeps more oxygen available.


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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [realAlbertan] [ In reply to ]
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realAlbertan wrote:
We used to do a ton of hypoxic ... usually 3/5/7/5 or 3/5/7/9 either by 25 or 50. 3/5 by stroke is nice

I've yet to hear of any training adaptations from hypoxic workouts. Can you break the streak?

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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I've yet to hear of any training adaptations from hypoxic workouts. Can you break the streak?

I know, I don't get it either. To me it's like saying, for run training, hold your breath as long as you can; slow down to a walking pace if you need to, maybe even crawl. I don't know what you'd do on a bike... wobble a lot, maybe throw kid's training wheels on it to keep you upright as you black out?



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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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I am no fish so take what I say with a grain of salt. But I think the idea is, when things go wrong with the stroke (cross over, scissor kick, pushing water down not back), they go wrong when you breathe. So I would imagine a snorkel would work too. But that is what makes it different than running or biking, your technique doesn't change when you breathe when running.
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
realAlbertan wrote:
We used to do a ton of hypoxic ... usually 3/5/7/5 or 3/5/7/9 either by 25 or 50. 3/5 by stroke is nice


I've yet to hear of any training adaptations from hypoxic workouts. Can you break the streak?

Here is an article about hypoxic training:

Taking the Hype Out of Hypoxic
By Terry Laughlin

The benefits are more in technique than physiology.

Swimming coaches have been fans of hypoxic (more accurately anoxic) training for about 20 years. If you've ever done a hypoxic set, you know it means making do with less air, since it refers to a low-frequency breathing pattern, usually every 3, 5, or 7 armstrokes, occasionally even less than that.

Coaches have favored hypoxic training for so long based on an assumption that you could simulate the effects of training at high altitude by breathing less often while swimming at low altitude. Studies of swimmers who live and train in places like Colorado (usually at 5,000 feet or more) have shown that they become highly efficient oxygen-processing machines. Among other changes, since it doesn't get as much oxygen, the body makes more hemoglobin, the element in blood that shuttles oxygen to the muscles. Since our blood generally uses only about 4 percent of the oxygen in the air we breathe, there is room to improve that.

Hypoxic training was supposed to accomplish much the same thing at sea level. But what really happens when you do hypoxic training is that you're breathing less often, not less oxygen, and this simply increases the level of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream. And the sole effect of that is YOU WANT TO BREATHE. Furthermore, the adaptations that result from breathing thinner air occur only from spending 100 percent of your time in that environment for weeks or months, not from doing a few hypoxic sets a few times a week.

Hypoxic training is particularly unsuitable for aging athletes since lung capacity is one of the functions that begins to diminish with age, and no amount of "breath-holding" will return or retain that diminishing capacity. It's important for Masters coaches - especially those who have not yet experienced the effects of aging themselves - to be reminded that the hypoxic effect of breathing every 7 for a young person might well be similar to that of an older person breathing every 3.

Nonetheless, coaches still like to give hypoxic sets. So what can you do? Actually, quite a lot, because while breath-control sets may not convey any TRAINING effect, they may still have a LEARNING effect. You just need to relax and look for creative ways to survive the ordeal. And that often means finding more economical (i.e., less oxygen-consuming) ways to move through the water. Here are several suggestions for getting the most benefit from your next hypoxic set:


  1. Instead of breathing every 3, 5, or 7 strokes by 50s, try breathing every 5, every 3, every 2 by 25s. Try to remain just as fluid on the last lap of each interval as you are on the first.
  2. If you normally breathe to one side, and if any hypoxic work is too much for you, swim the set breathing only to your opposite side. You'll be pleasantly surprised at how easy this will become after just a few laps, and at how it can help streamline your stroke once you return to breathing on your "normal" side.
  3. Since excessive or improper head movement is the stroke error with the greatest potential to hurt your body position and balance, one of the most effective and simplest drills to correct it is to swim short distances with the head held absolutely still. Try swimming 25-yard repeats, taking 0 to 2 breaths per length. For 50-yard repeats, aim for 3 to 4 breaths per length. On longer distances, try to breathe every 3 to 5 armstrokes, BUT GO VERY EASILY in order to swim without feeling distressed or tense. Tune in to how this smoothes out body movement and what your stroke feels like when you do so.
  4. You may find that when you do hypoxic sets, your body seems hungrier for air on the first repeat, but becomes progressively more comfortable with each repeat. This is because your body is adapting to the reduced oxygen availability by identifying and letting go of needless tension. Tension is nothing more than useless and involuntary muscle contractions that use oxygen without helping your swim faster. By relaxing and letting go of tension, you teach your body to use the oxygen that's available more efficiently.
  5. Hypoxic sets are most often assigned with pull buoys. That's because the largest (and oxygen-hungriest) muscles in the body are your quadriceps or thigh muscles. Stop kicking and it gets easier to swim further between breaths. But unless you anticipate being able to use a pull buoy in your next race, you're better off training your aerobic and nervous systems to perform without the aid of extra flotation. To take the load off your thigh muscles while doing hypoxic work, think of your legs as passive, and simply do less overt kicking. If you use hypoxic training, do it with the awareness that the benefits will be in technique, not physiology. While you're swimming further between breaths, concentrate on better balance, controlling your head movements, and learning to relax more while swimming.


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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
I've yet to hear of any training adaptations from hypoxic workouts. Can you break the streak?

+1. "Answers" I've gotten from coaches include:
1) it's like training at a higher intensity w/o needing to go faster
2) builds lactic acid tolerance
3) you'll learn to breathe both sides better for open water races

None hold much/any water. -Jason

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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I recently read an article recently stating that the hypoxic training is a hold-over from doc counsilman. Apparently the thought was that it simulated altitude training. A year of so later he (or somebody else) came to the conclusion that it wasn't true...yet it still remains firmly entrenched with swimming coaches.

I can see where it would benefit you to build up some confidence...but I've done sets at masters swimming 25y with zero breathes. I thought it was a waste of time.
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Re: Swimmers - how to breathe every 5th stroke [Moudi] [ In reply to ]
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Moudi wrote:
klehner wrote:
realAlbertan wrote:
We used to do a ton of hypoxic ... usually 3/5/7/5 or 3/5/7/9 either by 25 or 50. 3/5 by stroke is nice


I've yet to hear of any training adaptations from hypoxic workouts. Can you break the streak?


Here is an article about hypoxic training:

Taking the Hype Out of Hypoxic
By Terry Laughlin

The benefits are more in technique than physiology.

Swimming coaches have been fans of hypoxic (more accurately anoxic) training for about 20 years. If you've ever done a hypoxic set, you know it means making do with less air, since it refers to a low-frequency breathing pattern, usually every 3, 5, or 7 armstrokes, occasionally even less than that.

Coaches have favored hypoxic training for so long based on an assumption that you could simulate the effects of training at high altitude by breathing less often while swimming at low altitude. Studies of swimmers who live and train in places like Colorado (usually at 5,000 feet or more) have shown that they become highly efficient oxygen-processing machines. Among other changes, since it doesn't get as much oxygen, the body makes more hemoglobin, the element in blood that shuttles oxygen to the muscles. Since our blood generally uses only about 4 percent of the oxygen in the air we breathe, there is room to improve that.

Hypoxic training was supposed to accomplish much the same thing at sea level. But what really happens when you do hypoxic training is that you're breathing less often, not less oxygen, and this simply increases the level of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream. And the sole effect of that is YOU WANT TO BREATHE. Furthermore, the adaptations that result from breathing thinner air occur only from spending 100 percent of your time in that environment for weeks or months, not from doing a few hypoxic sets a few times a week.

Hypoxic training is particularly unsuitable for aging athletes since lung capacity is one of the functions that begins to diminish with age, and no amount of "breath-holding" will return or retain that diminishing capacity. It's important for Masters coaches - especially those who have not yet experienced the effects of aging themselves - to be reminded that the hypoxic effect of breathing every 7 for a young person might well be similar to that of an older person breathing every 3.

Nonetheless, coaches still like to give hypoxic sets. So what can you do? Actually, quite a lot, because while breath-control sets may not convey any TRAINING effect, they may still have a LEARNING effect. You just need to relax and look for creative ways to survive the ordeal. And that often means finding more economical (i.e., less oxygen-consuming) ways to move through the water. Here are several suggestions for getting the most benefit from your next hypoxic set:


  1. Instead of breathing every 3, 5, or 7 strokes by 50s, try breathing every 5, every 3, every 2 by 25s. Try to remain just as fluid on the last lap of each interval as you are on the first.
  2. If you normally breathe to one side, and if any hypoxic work is too much for you, swim the set breathing only to your opposite side. You'll be pleasantly surprised at how easy this will become after just a few laps, and at how it can help streamline your stroke once you return to breathing on your "normal" side.
  3. Since excessive or improper head movement is the stroke error with the greatest potential to hurt your body position and balance, one of the most effective and simplest drills to correct it is to swim short distances with the head held absolutely still. Try swimming 25-yard repeats, taking 0 to 2 breaths per length. For 50-yard repeats, aim for 3 to 4 breaths per length. On longer distances, try to breathe every 3 to 5 armstrokes, BUT GO VERY EASILY in order to swim without feeling distressed or tense. Tune in to how this smoothes out body movement and what your stroke feels like when you do so.
  4. You may find that when you do hypoxic sets, your body seems hungrier for air on the first repeat, but becomes progressively more comfortable with each repeat. This is because your body is adapting to the reduced oxygen availability by identifying and letting go of needless tension. Tension is nothing more than useless and involuntary muscle contractions that use oxygen without helping your swim faster. By relaxing and letting go of tension, you teach your body to use the oxygen that's available more efficiently.
  5. Hypoxic sets are most often assigned with pull buoys. That's because the largest (and oxygen-hungriest) muscles in the body are your quadriceps or thigh muscles. Stop kicking and it gets easier to swim further between breaths. But unless you anticipate being able to use a pull buoy in your next race, you're better off training your aerobic and nervous systems to perform without the aid of extra flotation. To take the load off your thigh muscles while doing hypoxic work, think of your legs as passive, and simply do less overt kicking. If you use hypoxic training, do it with the awareness that the benefits will be in technique, not physiology. While you're swimming further between breaths, concentrate on better balance, controlling your head movements, and learning to relax more while swimming.

there is nothing physiologically sound in that entire post.
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