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Swim skin = marketing???
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Roka athlete Lucy Charles did not use a swim skin at Samorin. She just used her Endura Tri suit.

I also notice the majority of pros are not using the sleeved swim skins. They typically choose to either roll it down or use a standard one with the Tri suit sleeves sticking out.

For suits with pockets I see the need for a skin but suits without pockets is it all marketing?
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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I thought the early textile swimskins had something to offer, but today's one piece tri-suits are now just as good making swimskins more of a marketing thing in my mind.
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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I heard that it was a late notice of wetsuit to non wetsuit so that might have been an issue too. I have not used a sleeved swim skin yet but always wear a swim skin when I can. But if I had an ITU suit I might not but my suits have pockets so I won't swim with them.

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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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Alwaysrunning99 wrote:


Roka athlete Lucy Charles did not use a swim skin at Samorin. She just used her Endura Tri suit.

I also notice the majority of pros are not using the sleeved swim skins. They typically choose to either roll it down or use a standard one with the Tri suit sleeves sticking out.

For suits with pockets I see the need for a skin but suits without pockets is it all marketing?

I have mentioned this on many threads, but I did some extensive swim skin testing, with the motivation being finding the fastest combination for me, and at best my swim skin was slightly slower, to a bit faster depending on what I was comparing to it. If I was in a sleeved one-piece (the kind that are really two-piece sewn together) I would wear a swim skin. However, the fastest thing I tested was a rear zip sleeveless trisuit


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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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Another thing to think about is that WTC races tend to have a global exemption and rulebook to some degree, but a lot of national federations just default to/incorporate the ITU rulebook. Until 2018, that said you can’t remove anything after the swim in a non-wetsuit swim, essentially eliminating a swimskin. The rule still applies for standard and shorter which is why we don’t see them in WTS racing. Since the rule just changed, it’s possible that federations that copy/paste verbiage rather than directly incorporates the most updated ITU rules still have a ban on swimskins.
Personally, I only wear one if it’s in the relatively limited use case where I can use my old school rubberized long one, because otherwise I don’t see a textile suit that’s effectively the same as an ITU style suit being any remote advantage over my regular ITU suit that I already race in.

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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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That's the fastest thing you tested for swimming, and assuming that's an ITU style suit with no pockets. But what about the bigger picture of the entire race? Would the time you save with that sleeveless tri suit be chewed up by the time potentially lost by not wearing one of the more aero sleeved tri suits on the bike?


Thomas Gerlach wrote:
the fastest thing I tested was a rear zip sleeveless trisuit
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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I found that 2/3 the speed of a swim skin is the compression it provides, so with a good tight fitting tri suit you should get most of the advantage. The swim skins are still the fastest, and if you are doing an ironman probably the way to go. But shorter races might not give you enough time in the bank to make up for the take off time. But there is still the you just might get into a faster pack with it, so that adds to the advantage.

Lucy probably did not have hers with, so she went with what she had. She is going to swim fast no matter what and off the front, so not as much a disadvantage for her. She did get beat by the lead man in the swim, perhaps that was the difference..(-;
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
However, the fastest thing I tested was a rear zip sleeveless trisuit

It is important to note that the trisuit you are referring to is very similar in fabric and design to a swimskin--I haven't tested it as "scientifically" as you, but have anecdotally found the Kiwami WS1 to be the fastest option for me. The material is like that of a swimskin and it is rear zip. Having said that, if I wear doing a longer course where wetsuit was not allowed, I would consider using the WS1 over a trisuit essentially as a swimskin.
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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TH3_FRB wrote:
That's the fastest thing you tested for swimming, and assuming that's an ITU style suit with no pockets. But what about the bigger picture of the entire race? Would the time you save with that sleeveless tri suit be chewed up by the time potentially lost by not wearing one of the more aero sleeved tri suits on the bike?


Thomas Gerlach wrote:
the fastest thing I tested was a rear zip sleeveless trisuit

It tested faster than the sleeved tri-suits. But again, not an apples-to-apples. The rear zip was a few uses old, the tri-suit was 9 month old and had quite a few races in it and I could feel the bottom of it flapping a bit during testing. It didn't test well swimming either. The other sleeved tri-suit was arguably one-size too big for optimal use on the bike but it was an LG suit. It also didn't test well swimming. The rear zip had no pockets, but I tested my old 2xu suit with pockets and it doesn't test slow in the water at all and it tested well in the wind tunnel for being well-used. It didn't beat brand new fitting super tight sleeved suits but I would have not expected it to.

As for other interactions go. In a pro race it is all about the swim, and the guys ride very hard early on which also doesn't mesh with two things:

1) I almost always swim above my pay grade in races, meaning I am a bit taxed on the bike, usually more taxed then the people I am coming out with.
2) My power profile is very flat. If you are going to pop me, pop me early. Riding too hard to early is a great way to extend me even further after already getting on the bike taxed. It hurts me more than others because my power profile is so flat.

Individual situations very, but believe me, as age-groupers walk into the food tent usually I am sitting there analyzing the fit of their tri suits. 9/10 it is too big.


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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
However, the fastest thing I tested was a rear zip sleeveless trisuit


It is important to note that the trisuit you are referring to is very similar in fabric and design to a swimskin--I haven't tested it as "scientifically" as you, but have anecdotally found the Kiwami WS1 to be the fastest option for me. The material is like that of a swimskin and it is rear zip. Having said that, if I wear doing a longer course where wetsuit was not allowed, I would consider using the WS1 over a trisuit essentially as a swimskin.

The Kiwami suit is NOT like a swim skin at all IMHO in spite of being marketed like that. You can easily test this yourself by taking the suit and dunking it in the drink and then seeing how long it takes to dry. My TYR Torque, Blue Seventy, and Roka suits dry with a snap of the fingers. The only swimskin I have tested that is like the Kiwami trisuit is a Kiwami Aquarush swimskin.


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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
However, the fastest thing I tested was a rear zip sleeveless trisuit


It is important to note that the trisuit you are referring to is very similar in fabric and design to a swimskin--I haven't tested it as "scientifically" as you, but have anecdotally found the Kiwami WS1 to be the fastest option for me. The material is like that of a swimskin and it is rear zip. Having said that, if I wear doing a longer course where wetsuit was not allowed, I would consider using the WS1 over a trisuit essentially as a swimskin.


The Kiwami suit is NOT like a swim skin at all IMHO in spite of being marketed like that. You can easily test this yourself by taking the suit and dunking it in the drink and then seeing how long it takes to dry. My TYR Torque, Blue Seventy, and Roka suits dry with a snap of the fingers. The only swimskin I have tested that is like the Kiwami trisuit is a Kiwami Aquarush swimskin.

I beg to differ. The Spider suit repels water and drys as quickly as any swimskin or other tri suit I have ever used. After a race it is still very light as it simply does NOT absorb water as many do.

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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed.
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I’m curious as to why a rear zip sleeved suit hasn’t been developed. It seems like it would be MUCH easier to slip the arms into if you roll it down for the swim, and then overall more aerodynamic. What am I missing? Surely something obvious since it hasn’t been done.



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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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as a woman with boobs, i can tell you that swimskins are faster. otherwise it's like wearing a drag suit. but i guess many (over 50%) of people don't have this issue. :)
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [kristenm] [ In reply to ]
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kristenm wrote:
as a woman with boobs, i can tell you that swimskins are faster. otherwise it's like wearing a drag suit. but i guess many (over 50%) of people don't have this issue. :)


Depends where I am on the body weight yo-yo ;)
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [kristenm] [ In reply to ]
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kristenm wrote:
as a woman with boobs, i can tell you that swimskins are faster. otherwise it's like wearing a drag suit. but i guess many (over 50%) of people don't have this issue. :)

Plenty of men have moobs!
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [kristenm] [ In reply to ]
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Good one :)

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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ggeiger wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
However, the fastest thing I tested was a rear zip sleeveless trisuit


It is important to note that the trisuit you are referring to is very similar in fabric and design to a swimskin--I haven't tested it as "scientifically" as you, but have anecdotally found the Kiwami WS1 to be the fastest option for me. The material is like that of a swimskin and it is rear zip. Having said that, if I wear doing a longer course where wetsuit was not allowed, I would consider using the WS1 over a trisuit essentially as a swimskin.


The Kiwami suit is NOT like a swim skin at all IMHO in spite of being marketed like that. You can easily test this yourself by taking the suit and dunking it in the drink and then seeing how long it takes to dry. My TYR Torque, Blue Seventy, and Roka suits dry with a snap of the fingers. The only swimskin I have tested that is like the Kiwami trisuit is a Kiwami Aquarush swimskin.


I beg to differ. The Spider suit repels water and drys as quickly as any swimskin or other tri suit I have ever used. After a race it is still very light as it simply does NOT absorb water as many do.

IME it doesn't dry anywhere close the same rate... Fwiw, I left them in the locker every day wet and came back the next day to do testing. The only thing that was dry were the true swim skins. Just look at the tags

The Kiwami Spider is made of

71% Polyamide / 29% Elastane
78% Polyester / 22% Elastane
83% Polyester / 17% Elastane

The BlueSeventy PZ4TX

65% Polyamide / 35%
56% Polyamide / 44% Elastane
29% Polyamide Micro / 29% Elastane

It probably helps that the swim skin doesn't really even absorb water in the first place. Regardless, again, the swim skins didn't test fast. The rear zip ITU suit (it was a Kiwami) was the winner. I wasn't expecting that going in to the testing


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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [mungub50] [ In reply to ]
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mungub50 wrote:
I’m curious as to why a rear zip sleeved suit hasn’t been developed. It seems like it would be MUCH easier to slip the arms into if you roll it down for the swim, and then overall more aerodynamic. What am I missing? Surely something obvious since it hasn’t been done.

Maybe nobody has thought to do it? You are going to have to get it zipped up though.


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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [Alwaysrunning99] [ In reply to ]
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Alwaysrunning99 wrote:

For suits with pockets I see the need for a skin but suits without pockets is it all marketing?

I can't speak for other brands, but I can say that for us (Aqua Sphere), it is not just marketing. Limits are provided by governing body's though.

There is a lot of development that goes in to a swim skin. Number one is developing a textile fabric that has a medium-ish level of compression but also produces a fast surface with very minimal drag. Newer suits are also adding more paneling that provide more compression benefit that aids you while swimming.

Monty mentioned fitting in the tightest suit possible. This is very important to achieve the greatest benefit. The tightest suit that doesn't restrict your breathing or range of motion.

If you look at swimmers and tech suits as an example, they most definitely work. Triathlon swim skins are using very similar technology. Tech suits that swimmers wear take a considerable amount of time to put on because they are so tight. A swim skin is designed to be fast in the water, but still be easy to take off. The textiles used are similar though.

For the benefit, it will vary by each athlete, and will not be as big of a benefit as a wetsuit for most people. That said, there is generally still a measurable benefit.

I'm biased, but I have done a fair amount of testing myself, and I do see the benefit.

jake

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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [jakers] [ In reply to ]
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Can you put some numbers on the benefit? What sort of time saving over 3.8k? Compared to a tight fitting pair of jammers or a tight fitting rear zip tri suit without pockets? They're a pretty costly item and I can't say I've ever seen any data claiming a specific time improvement versus something else. Just curious.
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [sheene] [ In reply to ]
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I did a whole bunch of tests on swim skins about 6 years ago, found this one which was the fastest. Sure the other tests are in the archives somewhere too;

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...orque_2012_3183.html
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [sheene] [ In reply to ]
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I can't put a number on it, and I don't think any other companies will either. There are a lot of variables that come in to play that make each swim different (tides, currents, temp, wind, other swimmers, etc). So far, there is not a consistent "wind tunnel" that I am aware of for swim products.

My opinion is that 2-5 seconds per 100m is a good range, and that will differ from swimmer to swimmer, some getting a greater benefit, some getting less.

For me, I see a benefit that varies based on the conditions and the suit I'm wearing and how tight it fits.

There are tri suits out there that have improved textiles that have better properties in the water. If I'm given the choice, I will wear a wetsuit or swim skin every time (other than a sprint swim shorter than 300m).

To the OP, Lucy Charles was asked on IG if she intended to wear her Endura tri suit only or if she forgot her swim skin, and she confirmed she forgot her swim skin.

jake

http://www.AquaSphereSwim.com
http://www.MichaelPhelps.com
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, that's a good read.
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Re: Swim skin = marketing??? [jakers] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like a reasonably significant gain to be had especially if you were on the 5s/100 end of the scale.
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