Swim catch & pull

Aug 14, 06 17:52

Post #1 of 43 (6387 views)

I'm not sure how to work on this but my pull has a lot of slip. I can watch a horizontal line on the bottom of the pool to judge my speed and my pull hand moves significantly faster.

What is a good way to really get the feel of this? It's eluding me.

If I swim fists, certainly I slow down a bit but I still feel the pull with my forearms.

Could certainly be non-streamlined body position causing drag. I swim just a bit faster with fins but don't feel aligned differently. Catch-up sets have really helped with improving my body position and getting to the front quadrant swim style.

If I do the kicking drill with one arm extended my entire body is submerged and I have to take a stroke to breathe (the short burst of speed causes me to plane higher, otherwise my mouth is still several inches under water when I turn for a breath). It almost seems like this is a catch 22: I have to swim faster to float higher in the water/allow breathing, but I'm not capable of swimming that fast with good form (yet).

Swimming has been a major focus of mine for the past 9 months. Unfortunately (seems to be typical for some) my progress seems to be stagnating. Over this time period I've improved swim times by ~20%. While significant, this barely puts me above the MOP. I'm worried I'm reinforcing poor form by focusing this much without progress.

I've done cursory searches for swim clinics but am not even sure where to look (willing to travel pretty much anywhere in the midwest). Any ideas? Local masters times do not work well for me.

Re: Swim catch & pull [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 5:59

Post #2 of 43 (6309 views)

There has to be some slip. Lately, however, I've found that if, at the end of my reach forward, I reach just a little bit farther and over and down, like the 'reaching over the barrel' (or whatever it's called), this really helps the 'high elbow' and seems to cause an accelleration as well as automatically engaging my trunk. I'm not sure that's clear. It may only work for me. I may be full of it.

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Re: Swim catch & pull [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 6:13

Post #3 of 43 (6278 views)

Sculling drills are often recommended to increase your ability to grab the water.

Fist drills are cool too but I find them most useful when you switch from fist to open hand in the middle of a lap to feel the contrast.

Re: Swim catch & pull [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 6:32

Post #4 of 43 (6247 views)

I just had an underwater video stroke analysis and was surprised to see how poor the hydrodynamics of my legs were. Though it seemed in my mind my legs were pretty still (I use a very easy kick, just enough to initiate rotation), they were all over the place, and my toes were far from streamlined. I've been working to keep a tighter, slimmer bottom half and have noticed marked improvement in my lap times.

So, in other words, the slippage may be due to poor hydrodynamics below the belt. Have a friend take a look underwater.

Roscoe

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Outside of my bike, my running shoes are my favorite things. Inside my bike, it's too cramped to run.

Re: Swim catch & pull [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 7:06

Post #5 of 43 (6182 views)

I'm not sure how to work on this but my pull has a lot of slip. I can watch a horizontal line on the bottom of the pool to judge my speed and my pull hand moves significantly faster.

What is a good way to really get the feel of this? It's eluding me.

The trick is to focus on what your hands and arms are feeling such that you don't have to look at the bottom of the pool to know your hands are slipping. Then, the next step is to get so you can unconsciously make the very small adjustments in hand and arm position during your stroke to stop slipping. But, it all starts with being able to feel what is happening.

Ideally, you should be able to actually feel the differences in water pressure on your hands and also feel the flow of water around them as your stroke changes. Then you need to be able to make very small adjustments to match those feelings with the maximum efficent application of power. Unfortunately, there is some limit on how much you can "learn" feel for the water. Pocessing that single natural talent is the biggest thing that seperates fast swimmers from slow swimmers. Good swimmers do what I have described completely unconsiously.

Sculling drills are good. Just float and focus on your hands as you make yourself move. You don't have to go fast. Actually, the more subtle the movements you are making the better.

Re: Swim catch & pull [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 9:31

Post #6 of 43 (6069 views)

There are a few things to consider:

Lower body position: (these affect how water flows past your body)

A: are you kicking from your upper thigh or lower leg?

B: ankle flexibility (are you pointing your toes or creating eddies)

Upper body:
A. Arm entry - If your arm enters at full extension it will fall down and destroy any flow line
B. Positioning of upper arm for maximum propulsion - flex your wrist and rotate your upper arm inwardly so that your elbow stays near the surface as you initiate your pull. You will be holding onto the water feeling your body move forward (action/reaction).

Count your strokes per length as you play with new technique. Notice if there is any change in the numbers.
DougStern

Upper body arm extension

a.

Re: Swim catch & pull [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 11:02

Post #7 of 43 (5968 views)

I would try the opposite approach from fists. Try swimming with paddles on for part of your workout. Paddles will force your stroke to be longer and force you to catch more water.

Actually, I have read (maybe in SwimmingWorld) that the world's elite swimmers will typically put their hand in and pull it out in the same location (effectively meaning that there is little slip in the overall stroke).

_______________________________________________________
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Swim and Multisport Events

Re: Swim catch & pull [jkenny5150] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 11:15

Post #8 of 43 (5933 views)

In Reply To:

Actually, I have read (maybe in SwimmingWorld) that the world's elite swimmers will typically put their hand in and pull it out in the same location (effectively meaning that there is little slip in the overall stroke).

True only if the hand goes no further forward underwater than the entry point, which is not likely. With enough glide, the hand can come out in front of where it enters. If what you say is true, then their hand slip is equal to their glide length.

Re: Swim catch & pull [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 13:32

Post #9 of 43 (5848 views)

A slipping problem can be corrected by:

1. Sculling drills -see Ernest Maglischo's books

2. Swimming with paddles -see E.M.'s books

3. Stroke per distance drills -see E.M.'s books; swim in a pool and count the number of arm strokes it takes to cross the pool. Then try to reduce it. Competitive swimmers can cross a 25 yard pool in about 12 arm strokes.

Good luck.

Chiro18

Re: Swim catch & pull [DougStern] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 14:19

Post #10 of 43 (5790 views)

[reply] A. Arm entry - If your arm enters at full extension it will fall down and destroy any flow line[/reply]

could you expand a bit on this? I always thought that given that air is much less thicker than water, extending underwater would slow things down...

btw, I really like this catch pic

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1435/1256/1600/Karlyn.0.jpg

Re: Swim catch & pull [chiro18] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 14:24

Post #11 of 43 (5782 views)

what's the going rate for a 25m or 25 yard pool *without* kicking?

Re: Swim catch & pull [dawhead] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 14:36

Post #12 of 43 (5751 views)

I'm would recommend to the do the exercise with a moderate kick. If you do it without kicking, your feet sink to the bottom. That is actually another drill that is designed to work on strength and power. In that case you tie your feet together and swim across the pool. This isn't what you want to do to increase your stroke efficiency.

Please note: I'm always surprised at the number of triathletes that attempt to correct their strokes by following their fellow triathletes. Not the best idea. I would recommend working with the local swim team and get tips from the coachs. An ex-college swimmer now coach usually has the teaching and technical skills to help out the most.

If you're really serious about it, attend a swim camp. I know that the UW Badgers Swim Camp and University of Michigan's swim camp are great. I don't know if they allow adults, but it you can find something like that, go for it.

Re: Swim catch & pull [chiro18] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 14:45

Post #13 of 43 (5732 views)

that wasn't quite my point, but i appreciate the advice.

i'm just a little confused - good swimmers can get a pretty strong level of forward propulsion from their kicks. triathlon swimmers, even if they *can* do that, generally don't want to use their legs in this way. which one you choose (or anything in between or on the side of them) will affect your stroke count, perhaps by quite a lot.

so i am wondering what the going rate for a good pool crossing with an easy 2-beat kick might be ....

Re: Swim catch & pull [Marco in BC] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 15:12

Post #14 of 43 (5706 views)

Marco,

As your arm enters the water short of full extension it receives the water and creates lift (your body rises slightly). It is also linked to creating body rotation. Think of a diagonal line from shoulder to opposite hip. As your shoulder move forward your opposite hip opens.

DougStern

Re: Swim catch & pull [dawhead] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 15:19

Post #15 of 43 (5697 views)

There is a pretty wide range. World class swimmers can swim 25 yds in 8-10 strokes. I saw a guy go 1:52 200SCM and averaged about 12 strokes per length. That's not world class but it's pretty freakin fast and very efficient with that stroke count.

I think a reasonable goal to shoot for, in a 25 yd pool, with a 2 or 4 beat kick, would be 12-16 strokes per length. If you are in this range then you probably don't have any major flaws. If you have a higher stroke count you probably have some issues that need to be addressed by a coach. Of course, if you are less than 5' tall that could be the problem right there. :)

Ed

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Re: Swim catch & pull [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 15:28

Post #16 of 43 (5681 views)

Find a swim coach and spend enough to have a few sessions with him or her. I saw a swim coach maybe three times this year and all of a sudden it became very clear to me. I can't explain it over the 'net (and would probably do a shitty job in person too) but a good coach will have you understanding things you thought you already "got".

The best swim advice I ever got was from DesertDude: "For 1/10th the price of a disc wheel, a good swim coach will get you WAY more time in a race".

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Re: Swim catch & pull [DougStern] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 15:29

Post #17 of 43 (5681 views)

[reply]As your arm enters the water short of full extension it receives the water and creates lift (your body rises slightly). It is also linked to creating body rotation. Think of a diagonal line from shoulder to opposite hip. As your shoulder move forward your opposite hip opens.[/reply]

how would the arm going in create lift? given that you are going forward in the water if the arm points downwards when it enters it should be pushed even further downward by the water resistance.... where is the lift coming from?

And also, in general, if you got lift it must be coming from somewhere, wouldn't this be increasing drag?

Again, I am not by any stretch of the imagination a good swimmer, but the engineer in me is wondering about the physics of things...

Re: Swim catch & pull [Marco in BC] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 15:55

Post #18 of 43 (5651 views)

Marco,

When your fingers enter the water they arm pointing downward and then immediately point forward and ever so slightly upward. The water flows under your hand and arm as you move forward. Your extended arm is near the surface of the water.

DougStern

Re: Swim catch & pull [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 17:50

Post #19 of 43 (5585 views)

Thanks for the replies. As expected, some of the things I thought I'd hear (but didn't want to)... I heard. :)

- I've attempted sculling drills a few times and sucked down a LOT of water
- counting strokes -- I see the benefit but man does this make swimming tedious

I didn't expect the recommendation for paddles. I have a set but have been holding off using them until I was more comfortable with my stroke -- perhaps that was unwise.

Again, thanks for the solid responses. The serious part of my season is over in a week and I'm starting to think about how to spend my pool time this fall and winter. Now, to look for some coachin'...

Re: Swim catch & pull [chiro18] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 23:02

Post #20 of 43 (5479 views)

as everyone has been saying, sculling drills, but make sure that you are sculling in a high elbow position. Also, do one arm drills because it will force you to expose any inconsistency with your pull.

as others have said, distance per stroke drills are good, but don't take them to extremes, you CAN get across the pool in 8 strokes, but it doesn't always help. Instead, pick your race pace, count your strokes per lap for a couple hundred. Then if you are doing more than say 16 strokes per lap on average (should always be at or near the same), focus on forearm strength and catching through sculling and specific drills.

Expect it to take around a month of practice to see improvements. It took me a complete season to drop from 15 strokes per lap to 14 as a competetive swimmer. (distance swimmers tend to take more strokes per lap, kinda like higher cadence for cycling).

Re: Swim catch & pull [jamdavswim] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 23:38

Post #21 of 43 (5468 views)

"(distance swimmers tend to take more strokes per lap, kinda like higher cadence for cycling)."

Is that true? I have no idea really but logically it would seem to be the opposite. Distacne swimmers woudl take longer more effecient but fewer strokes to conserve energy where as sprinters would be able to take shorter more frequent strokes.

~Matt

Re: Swim catch & pull [edwinj] [ In reply to ]

Aug 15, 06 23:41

Post #22 of 43 (5465 views)

I used to not think that kicking was a major factor in swim speed, I'm begining to wonder though.

Seems almost every semi fast swimmer I know can kick a 100 yards as fast as I can swim it. OTOH I have almost NO kick and thus am fairly slow.

It would be a very interesting study to see the difference in stroke count of an "elite" swimmer while kicking and not kicking.

~Matt

Re: Swim catch & pull [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]

Aug 16, 06 2:09

Post #23 of 43 (5437 views)

Swim with paddles and only put your middle finger in the strap ie no stap around the wrist. If you aren't doing it correctly the paddle will nmove around everywhere. When correct the paddle will stay in place.

cya

Re: Swim catch & pull [edwinj] [ In reply to ]

Aug 16, 06 5:35

Post #24 of 43 (5381 views)

In Reply To:

There is a pretty wide range. World class swimmers can swim 25 yds in 8-10 strokes. I saw a guy go 1:52 200SCM and averaged about 12 strokes per length. That's not world class but it's pretty freakin fast and very efficient with that stroke count.

I think a reasonable goal to shoot for, in a 25 yd pool, with a 2 or 4 beat kick, would be 12-16 strokes per length. If you are in this range then you probably don't have any major flaws. If you have a higher stroke count you probably have some issues that need to be addressed by a coach. Of course, if you are less than 5' tall that could be the problem right there. :)

Ed

Is a stroke considered a single stroke with one hand or a single stroke with the right and left hand (ie a whole cycle)? Sorry, probably a dumb question, but I wanted to clarify. Thanks.

Re: Swim catch & pull [jamiewilson3] [ In reply to ]

Aug 16, 06 6:20

Post #25 of 43 (5341 views)

In swimming parlance a stroke is typically counted per arm not the whole cycle.

Ed

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