Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack...

Jun 18, 18 4:35

Post #1 of 38 (3482 views)

A while ago, I genuinely asked what people considered FOP/MOP/BOP because those terms were new to me, and I was curious. There was little consensus. The current poll makes that real. To the pollster, what is your definition of Front/Middle/Back Of Pack that everyone should be using? Is it adjusted by age group? Is front Top 5%, Top 10%, Top 15%, Other? What about middle or bottom?

I am an old guy, and I do not consider myself a fast swimmer. I took it slightly easy in my last race, I was 14th in AG out of 91 finishers (15%) and 194 out of 1170 finishers (17%). My last race in 2017, I swam 8th in AG out of 223 (4% AG) and 181 overall out of 2480 finishers (7%). Seems like the former would put me around MOP and the latter could be budding FOP. But, I feel I am far from FOP, because I know me.

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Jun 18, 18 4:41

Post #2 of 38 (3470 views)

FOP top 5 placegetters amongst your peers. MOP 2nd and 3rd quartile. BOP the good cyclists. Does it matter? LOL.

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Jun 18, 18 5:38

Post #3 of 38 (3409 views)

FOP - in contact / contention with the main group of leaders.

BOP - flirting with cutoffs / in contention with the last group in your AG

MOP - everyone else.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Jun 18, 18 5:39

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Jun 18, 18 5:56

Post #4 of 38 (3393 views)

This question keeps coming up and I really don't get it.
Front, back, middle. No precision is needed. It doesn't matter much if you're comparing with your age group only. There's a broad spread of performance in triathlon so pick one and you'll be close enough. If you're not sure, guess. The fact there's such confusion makes it pointless as an accurate analysis term anyway so don't worry about it.

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Jun 18, 18 9:41

Post #5 of 38 (3295 views)

Being a FOP swimmer, I have had the pleasure of swimming in (through) all 3 sections. Here is my take:

FOP - everyone is swimming straight and has a very good read on the proper course to the next buoy without stopping or lifting their heads wildly out of the water. By and large, these people all think the swim is fun. While there might be physical contact now and then, you're generally not getting kicked in the head.

MOP - crowded with random collisions and it is generally pretty hard to go exactly where you want to go. Lots of little scrums of people fighting tooth and nail to occupy the same spot even though there is clear water 5 feet away. Not much panic but not everyone is having fun. Everyone is still swimming freestyle save the occasional sighting break but watch out for the random breaststroke kick coming at your face from out of nowhere.

BOP - There are a decent number of people not doing freestyle. There is the occasional person a full 90 degrees off course. There are some people who would drown without a wet suit on. Pretty much no one is having fun.

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [STP] [ In reply to ]

Jun 18, 18 10:32

Post #6 of 38 (3241 views)

STP wrote:

Being a FOP swimmer, I have had the pleasure of swimming in (through) all 3 sections. Here is my take:

FOP - everyone is swimming straight and has a very good read on the proper course to the next buoy without stopping or lifting their heads wildly out of the water. By and large, these people all think the swim is fun. While there might be physical contact now and then, you're generally not getting kicked in the head.

MOP - crowded with random collisions and it is generally pretty hard to go exactly where you want to go. Lots of little scrums of people fighting tooth and nail to occupy the same spot even though there is clear water 5 feet away. Not much panic but not everyone is having fun. Everyone is still swimming freestyle save the occasional sighting break but watch out for the random breaststroke kick coming at your face from out of nowhere.

BOP - There are a decent number of people not doing freestyle. There is the occasional person a full 90 degrees off course. There are some people who would drown without a wet suit on. Pretty much no one is having fun.

That's awesome, and probably true.

Another way to assess, what's your reaction when the RD announces that the swim is cancelled / shortened / wetsuit legal?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 18, 18 11:12

Post #7 of 38 (3206 views)

Times are better than placing percentage, as all BOP may do a race...

Thus, using Olympic distance race times:
FOP < 2:20 MOP 2:40 > BOP

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 18, 18 19:21

Post #8 of 38 (3064 views)

Yet more subjective criteria for FOP swimmer: are you totally relaxed at the start? Not stressed about the details of the swim? Spending all your mental energy thinking about what happens AFTER 27:00/56:00 of swimming? Actively thinking about shutting down your legs the entire time? Silently judging those who use mask goggles and have caps on sideways? Feeling a let-down when the swim is over and you've got 10 hours ahead of you?

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Jun 18, 18 20:01

Post #9 of 38 (3038 views)

exxxviii wrote:

A while ago, I genuinely asked what people considered FOP/MOP/BOP because those terms were new to me, and I was curious. There was little consensus. The current poll makes that real. To the pollster, what is your definition of Front/Middle/Back Of Pack that everyone should be using? Is it adjusted by age group? Is front Top 5%, Top 10%, Top 15%, Other? What about middle or bottom?

I am an old guy, and I do not consider myself a fast swimmer. I took it slightly easy in my last race, I was 14th in AG out of 91 finishers (15%) and 194 out of 1170 finishers (17%). My last race in 2017, I swam 8th in AG out of 223 (4% AG) and 181 overall out of 2480 finishers (7%). Seems like the former would put me around MOP and the latter could be budding FOP. But, I feel I am far from FOP, because I know me.

I think you can safely call your 15-17% finish a FOMOP finish and your 4-7% finishes FOP finishes for you AG.

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 18, 18 22:21

Post #10 of 38 (3003 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

STP wrote:

Being a FOP swimmer, I have had the pleasure of swimming in (through) all 3 sections. Here is my take:

FOP - everyone is swimming straight and has a very good read on the proper course to the next buoy without stopping or lifting their heads wildly out of the water. By and large, these people all think the swim is fun. While there might be physical contact now and then, you're generally not getting kicked in the head.

MOP - crowded with random collisions and it is generally pretty hard to go exactly where you want to go. Lots of little scrums of people fighting tooth and nail to occupy the same spot even though there is clear water 5 feet away. Not much panic but not everyone is having fun. Everyone is still swimming freestyle save the occasional sighting break but watch out for the random breaststroke kick coming at your face from out of nowhere.

BOP - There are a decent number of people not doing freestyle. There is the occasional person a full 90 degrees off course. There are some people who would drown without a wet suit on. Pretty much no one is having fun.

That's awesome, and probably true.

Another way to assess, what's your reaction when the RD announces that the swim is cancelled / shortened / wetsuit legal?

haha I've had 5 swim cancellations this season. 3 sharks, 2 weather.. not happy.. Not sure why, but a lot of the top AGers in my AG and others seem to be pretty average swimmers. So the swim cancellation is of huge benefit to them.

Last edited by: zedzded: Jun 18, 18 22:23

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [140triguy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 18, 18 22:31

Post #11 of 38 (2996 views)

140triguy wrote:

Yet more subjective criteria for FOP swimmer: are you totally relaxed at the start? Not stressed about the details of the swim? Spending all your mental energy thinking about what happens AFTER 27:00/56:00 of swimming? Actively thinking about shutting down your legs the entire time? Silently judging those who use mask goggles and have caps on sideways? Feeling a let-down when the swim is over and you've got 10 hours ahead of you?

I'm a BOP swimmer with aspirations of hitting MOP next season, and I can honestly say I'm very relaxed at the start, not stressed about the swim, am thinking ahead to the bike/run, and my kick is non-existent so I don't need to worry about shutting down the legs. I can swim all day long, just not very fast! Suspect I'd probably be more stressed if I was FOP and worrying about my position, trying to get in a good group, etc. I am however in no position to judge anybody else, and I am pretty happy when the swim is over and I can start making up some lost time.

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 3:59

Post #12 of 38 (2932 views)

synthetic wrote:

Times are better than placing percentage, as all BOP may do a race...

Thus, using Olympic distance race times:
FOP < 2:20 MOP 2:40 > BOP

Given I went sub-2:20 at a hot, crowded CapTex this year on a road bike, I think that's too generous. Most of y'all would smoke me.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 5:25

Post #13 of 38 (2886 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

STP wrote:

Being a FOP swimmer, I have had the pleasure of swimming in (through) all 3 sections. Here is my take:

FOP - everyone is swimming straight and has a very good read on the proper course to the next buoy without stopping or lifting their heads wildly out of the water. By and large, these people all think the swim is fun. While there might be physical contact now and then, you're generally not getting kicked in the head.

MOP - crowded with random collisions and it is generally pretty hard to go exactly where you want to go. Lots of little scrums of people fighting tooth and nail to occupy the same spot even though there is clear water 5 feet away. Not much panic but not everyone is having fun. Everyone is still swimming freestyle save the occasional sighting break but watch out for the random breaststroke kick coming at your face from out of nowhere.

BOP - There are a decent number of people not doing freestyle. There is the occasional person a full 90 degrees off course. There are some people who would drown without a wet suit on. Pretty much no one is having fun.

That's awesome, and probably true.

Another way to assess, what's your reaction when the RD announces that the swim is cancelled / shortened / wetsuit legal?

Yes, just take the decibal reading off the applause meter!

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 6:40

Post #14 of 38 (2845 views)

I think if it's a wave start and you're Top 10, that's FOP.
If you can see the lead swimmer of your wave when you raise your head to sight, you're FOP.
Revel in the small victory of knowing you're out of the water better than most ppl in your wave.

STP's comment about frog-kicks to the face, ppl off course by 90 degrees, and fighting scrums when clear water is 5ft away = all spot-on

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 7:19

Post #15 of 38 (2822 views)

cartsman wrote:

140triguy wrote:

Yet more subjective criteria for FOP swimmer: are you totally relaxed at the start? Not stressed about the details of the swim? Spending all your mental energy thinking about what happens AFTER 27:00/56:00 of swimming? Actively thinking about shutting down your legs the entire time? Silently judging those who use mask goggles and have caps on sideways? Feeling a let-down when the swim is over and you've got 10 hours ahead of you?

I'm a BOP swimmer with aspirations of hitting MOP next season, and I can honestly say I'm very relaxed at the start, not stressed about the swim, am thinking ahead to the bike/run, and my kick is non-existent so I don't need to worry about shutting down the legs. I can swim all day long, just not very fast! Suspect I'd probably be more stressed if I was FOP and worrying about my position, trying to get in a good group, etc. I am however in no position to judge anybody else, and I am pretty happy when the swim is over and I can start making up some lost time.

I'm a BOP swimmer who somehow gets to be MOP at HIM and IM distance not through faster swimming but I believe more so because the people behind me just didn't do ANY swim training for the race. My local races, I'm BOP swimmer and then I have to make up a bunch of time on the bike and run. I can't say I'm relaxed on the swim as I always have this idea that I can "red-line" it on the swim and make up 30 seconds or so. But halfway through the swim I'm resigned to my normal slow swim and just cruise along.

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 7:25

Post #16 of 38 (2815 views)

cartsman wrote:

I'm a BOP swimmer ... I can swim all day long, just not very fast!

This. I'm not anxious going into the swim, swimming freestyle, mostly headed towards the right buoy, not in any danger of drowning without my wetsuit. I'm just not fast. Based on STP's descriptions I would consider myself MOP, but timewise, I'm pretty solidly BOP.

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 8:41

Post #17 of 38 (2778 views)

Quote:

your reaction when the RD announces that the swim is cancelled / shortened / wetsuit legal?

Drop out of the race / seething anger / not concerned (I'll benefit just as much from wetsuit as anyone else)

-----

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 8:50

Post #18 of 38 (2766 views)

I would agree that the line between MOP and BOP is more psychological than speed based. Speed helps but you can get into the MOP in my classification system on attitude alone.

The distinction between FOP and MOP though is skills based. Not just basic swimming skills but open water swimming skills play a huge role too.

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [Toby] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 9:08

Post #19 of 38 (2755 views)

Toby wrote:

synthetic wrote:

Times are better than placing percentage, as all BOP may do a race...

Thus, using Olympic distance race times:
FOP < 2:20 MOP 2:40 > BOP

Given I went sub-2:20 at a hot, crowded CapTex this year on a road bike, I think that's too generous. Most of y'all would smoke me.

But look at the results and you are likely in top 33% or better

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [STP] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 9:15

Post #20 of 38 (2749 views)

STP wrote:

I would agree that the line between MOP and BOP is more psychological than speed based. Speed helps but you can get into the MOP in my classification system on attitude alone.

The distinction between FOP and MOP though is skills based. Not just basic swimming skills but open water swimming skills play a huge role too.

Nope, disagree.

I wad a true bop swimmer for nearly 2 years despite being a for cyclist and runner despite taking the swim seriously, training as much as I could, and being as mentally prepared as possible.

Wasn't afraid of the water or getting too tired or dnf the swim. I simply didn't have the arm power to swim fast enough to get out of the back of the pack.

I now finish top 10-15 percent and it is all due to pull power, with some slight sighting gains. No attitude adjustment whatsoever.

Last edited by: lightheir: Jun 19, 18 9:16

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 9:33

Post #21 of 38 (2737 views)

I was just thinking about this today. Go figure.

Can we add some classifications?

I'll take a swing at this with the added levels

FOP = top 3-5%
FMOP = 5%-20%
MOP = 20% - 60%
BMOP (or FBOP) = 60% to 70%
BOP = 70% - last out of the water

Too much delineation?

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [140triguy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 9:33

Post #22 of 38 (2737 views)

140triguy wrote:

Yet more subjective criteria for FOP swimmer: are you totally relaxed at the start? Not stressed about the details of the swim? Spending all your mental energy thinking about what happens AFTER 27:00/56:00 of swimming? Actively thinking about shutting down your legs the entire time? Silently judging those who use mask goggles and have caps on sideways? Feeling a let-down when the swim is over and you've got 10 hours ahead of you?

Generally, right before the race I am super annoyed because there are about 100 super aggressive dudes pushing their way to the front of the line because they *think* they are a FOP swimmer. I either have to spend energy pushing back then and there, or running them over right after the gun goes off.

Last edited by: sch340: Jun 19, 18 9:35

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [trislayer] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 9:47

Post #23 of 38 (2722 views)

trislayer wrote:

I was just thinking about this today. Go figure.

Can we add some classifications?

I'll take a swing at this with the added levels

FOP = top 3-5%
FMOP = 5%-20%
MOP = 20% - 60%
BMOP (or FBOP) = 60% to 70%
BOP = 70% - last out of the water

Too much delineation?

No, that's better than FOP being the guy at the back of the top 33%. FOP should be "if you show up, your AG is cursing".

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [sch340] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 17:28

Post #24 of 38 (2647 views)

sch340 wrote:

140triguy wrote:

Yet more subjective criteria for FOP swimmer: are you totally relaxed at the start? Not stressed about the details of the swim? Spending all your mental energy thinking about what happens AFTER 27:00/56:00 of swimming? Actively thinking about shutting down your legs the entire time? Silently judging those who use mask goggles and have caps on sideways? Feeling a let-down when the swim is over and you've got 10 hours ahead of you?

Generally, right before the race I am super annoyed because there are about 100 super aggressive dudes pushing their way to the front of the line because they *think* they are a FOP swimmer. I either have to spend energy pushing back then and there, or running them over right after the gun goes off.

I find the top MOP swimmers start way too fast, I can sometimes find myself back in 20th or whatever, I tend to start conservatively, gradually pick up the pace, I normally get to 400m and am going past these guys like they're doing breaststroke, they've just gone out way too hard. Some FOP swimmers, gun it from the start then settle. It just doesn't suit me.

I'm a bit embarrassed calling myself a FOP swimmer, my swimmer mates would have a good chuckle if they knew..

Last edited by: zedzded: Jun 19, 18 17:36

Re: Swim Poll: Define xxx Of Pack... [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Jun 19, 18 19:17

Post #25 of 38 (2601 views)

zedzded wrote:

I normally get to 400m and am going past these guys like they're doing breaststroke, they've just gone out way too hard. Some FOP swimmers, gun it from the start then settle. It just doesn't suit me.

You're FOP if you come out of the water FOP. Not if you start FOP. It's like the Olympic marathoners who launch at the start in order to be on TV leading the Olympic marathon. They're not FOP elite marathoners.

Last edited by: trail: Jun 19, 18 19:18

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