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Sweet spot running
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Why is it that sweet spot (subthreshold) training is so popular in biking and yet most running programs tend to be focused on threshold running (rather than lower intensity tempo/subthreshold)?
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Re: Sweet spot running [Dimm] [ In reply to ]
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Injuries while running... Running faster increases possibility of injury, so when you are going to run faster, subthreshold isn't that much less than threshold. Run shorter time at threshold, instead of longer at subthreshold reduces risk. Cycling at subthreshold allows you to go further without increasing your chance of injury (assuming good bike fit).

I'm not a Dr. or coach, just information based on what I've read and been instructed.

Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.
Last edited by: LEBoyd: Jan 18, 21 12:09
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Re: Sweet spot running [Dimm] [ In reply to ]
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Dimm wrote:
Why is it that sweet spot (subthreshold) training is so popular in biking and yet most running programs tend to be focused on threshold running (rather than lower intensity tempo/subthreshold)?

I'm going to guess then wait for the experts.........

On the bike, the impact of sweetspot is essentially how well you are at picking the zone, duration, and frequency. There isn't a "pounding" factor to it. You won't acutely injure yourself.

With running, threshold is a shorter duration of time than "sweetspot" both during a single workout AND over the course of a week. So, the pounding is less.

Running is impact, cycling is not.

So, sweetspot on the bike is just how much you can fit within your CTL/ATL/TSB before you crack. Not whether you're going to actually injure your legs.

Also, true sweetspot on the bike isn't doing a few cute 10min sets in a single workout or two workouts. To me, it's accumulating a couple hours of it over the course of a week. I only ride my bike 6 hours a week. In a sweetspot week, I'd target 3 hours spent in sweetspot zone.

If that were threshold, a strong week might see me hit 90min total time in zone.
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Re: Sweet spot running [Dimm] [ In reply to ]
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im no expert but my take is that the time commitment in running to build a base doing zone1/zone 2 work is far less than the time commitment it would take a cyclist to build a base doing purely zone 1/zone 2 work. for running you can say 60 miles is a solid base but that time commitment is ~7-8 hours while 7-8 hours of zone1/zone 2 on the bike doesn't seem like it would get you nearly as "comparatively" fit

Additionally there is a higher injury risk in running when upping the intensity
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Re: Sweet spot running [Dimm] [ In reply to ]
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I actually had very good results from a plan that had a lot of HIM paced running (which I equate to sweet-spot efforts)
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Re: Sweet spot running [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Dimm wrote:
Why is it that sweet spot (subthreshold) training is so popular in biking and yet most running programs tend to be focused on threshold running (rather than lower intensity tempo/subthreshold)?

I'm going to guess then wait for the experts.........

On the bike, the impact of sweetspot is essentially how well you are at picking the zone, duration, and frequency. There isn't a "pounding" factor to it. You won't acutely injure yourself.

With running, threshold is a shorter duration of time than "sweetspot" both during a single workout AND over the course of a week. So, the pounding is less.

Running is impact, cycling is not.

So, sweetspot on the bike is just how much you can fit within your CTL/ATL/TSB before you crack. Not whether you're going to actually injure your legs.

Also, true sweetspot on the bike isn't doing a few cute 10min sets in a single workout or two workouts. To me, it's accumulating a couple hours of it over the course of a week. I only ride my bike 6 hours a week. In a sweetspot week, I'd target 3 hours spent in sweetspot zone.

If that were threshold, a strong week might see me hit 90min total time in zone.

90 mins of threshold is a lot and that’s coming from someone who runs 8 hours a week.

I run my tempos at just about sub threshold. My threshold BPM is 172 so I try to stick between 165-170 for 20 to 40 mins depending on the rest of my week.

Intervals will be at threshold or above but we’re talking 3-10 min intervals for no more than 30-40 working mins and no more than an hour for the week.
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Re: Sweet spot running [MiRoBu] [ In reply to ]
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He was specifying 90min threshold on the bike, which is a fairly standard load i'd think. That's a lot different than 90min threshold on the run of course. So you would be correct in your statement

Strava
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Re: Sweet spot running [LEBoyd] [ In reply to ]
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LEBoyd wrote:
Injuries while running... Running faster increases possibility of injury, so when you are going to run faster, subthreshold isn't that much less than threshold. Run shorter time at threshold, instead of longer at subthreshold reduces risk. Cycling at subthreshold allows you to go further without increasing your chance of injury (assuming good bike fit).

I'm not a Dr. or coach, just information based on what I've read and been instructed.

Thanks all for the interesting thoughts. Many people think the focus on threshold in running is because of the less time required at this speed to decrease the pounding. I think it makes sense although I wonder whether running a bit slower would not achieve similar benefits leaving the athlete a bit less tired, even if one would run a bit more at this slower speed. It feels that even in cycling there are more and more advanced coaches (including here on ST) who think that training mostly below threshold is the way to go...
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Re: Sweet spot running [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Dimm wrote:
Why is it that sweet spot (subthreshold) training is so popular in biking and yet most running programs tend to be focused on threshold running (rather than lower intensity tempo/subthreshold)?


I'm going to guess then wait for the experts.........

On the bike, the impact of sweetspot is essentially how well you are at picking the zone, duration, and frequency. There isn't a "pounding" factor to it. You won't acutely injure yourself.

With running, threshold is a shorter duration of time than "sweetspot" both during a single workout AND over the course of a week. So, the pounding is less.

Running is impact, cycling is not.

So, sweetspot on the bike is just how much you can fit within your https://www.newenglandsummit.com/ slots online bonus CTL/ATL/TSB before you crack. Not whether you're going to actually injure your legs.

Also, true sweetspot on the bike isn't doing a few cute 10min sets in a single workout or two workouts. To me, it's accumulating a couple hours of it over the course of a week. I only ride my bike 6 hours a week. In a sweetspot week, I'd target 3 hours spent in sweetspot zone.

If that were threshold, a strong week might see me hit 90min total time in zone.

Great answer! thanks!
Last edited by: karla: Feb 1, 21 3:25
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Re: Sweet spot running [Dimm] [ In reply to ]
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Why is it that sweet spot (subthreshold) training is so popular in biking and yet most running programs tend to be focused on threshold running (rather than lower intensity tempo/subthreshold)?


It's JUST as important in run training as it is in cycling training. The caveat here is the most triathletes and rec runners never build up the base, over time(years and years) and the durability and relative efficiency that comes with that, that they can stand doing much of it without too much strain on the body!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Sweet spot running [Dimm] [ In reply to ]
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My recent Inscyd running test revealed that my VLaMax in running is too high for someone focusing on anything from Olympic to 70.3 distance (same goes for my cycling), so I'm doing sweet spot work now as well for the first time in running after having good success with it for cycling (+10W FTP on a 20' test, from 4.4W/kg to 4.6W/kg in 3.5 months).

My running threshold was determined to be 4'20"/km (only ran 20-25k/week the last half year due to Covid and no races) at a heart rate of 158BPM, so I've been doing 4x6' at 4'30-35"/km (which is +-145BPM for me, which equates to about 280W on the bike), 4x7', 4x8', 5x7' all with 1' rest in between. I've only been doing them for a month so hard to say much but I'll try to remember to update here in a few weeks/months.
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Re: Sweet spot running [Tri_Joeri] [ In reply to ]
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Tri_Joeri wrote:
My recent Inscyd running test revealed that my VLaMax in running is too high for someone focusing on anything from Olympic to 70.3 distance (same goes for my cycling), so I'm doing sweet spot work now as well for the first time in running after having good success with it for cycling (+10W FTP on a 20' test, from 4.4W/kg to 4.6W/kg in 3.5 months).

My running threshold was determined to be 4'20"/km (only ran 20-25k/week the last half year due to Covid and no races) at a heart rate of 158BPM, so I've been doing 4x6' at 4'30-35"/km (which is +-145BPM for me, which equates to about 280W on the bike), 4x7', 4x8', 5x7' all with 1' rest in between. I've only been doing them for a month so hard to say much but I'll try to remember to update here in a few weeks/months.

Thanks, very interesting, please keep us posted.
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Re: Sweet spot running [Dimm] [ In reply to ]
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Marathon paced running is Sweetspot... and it works very well for me.

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Re: Sweet spot running [Dimm] [ In reply to ]
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Injury risk is lower in cycling.


I think a lot of folks run their easy or long-ish runs at or near sweet spot unintentionally. Or at least sizeable chunks of their runs at these paces. Especially in hilly areas.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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