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Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels?
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I have a 2012 S-Works Venge with FLO 30 wheels that I use for crit racing. The wheels are well worn and need replacement, so I'm weighing my options. I assumed I could spend $500 on new FLO30's but I don't see them on their website. I always felt like FLO30's were the sweet spot for 'cheap' wheels. Still reasonably aero, not crazy heavy, wide internal width so I can put a 25mm tire without bulging, etc.

The current wheels are worn all around, but the bearings are what is making me go for a full replacement.

What are my other options? Ideally I'd like to keep the price $1000 or less.

My only requirements are:

Price: $1000 or less
Braking surface: Aluminum, rim brakes (no carbon braking surface)

If it matters, I live in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Edit to add: Worth mentioning, I have access to a good job who can build wheels (free labor for me) so that's an option. I wouldn't even know what items to buy though.
Last edited by: cbr shadow: Jan 17, 19 9:36
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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I’ll assume flo wheels have sealed cartridge bearings and not cup/cone loose ball bearings.

There is a good chance your wheel builder could drive your old bearings out and press in new units. Be a good time to take a look at the free hub body as well. Hubs will then be as good as new for a lot less money.
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, the Flo 30 was discontinued. It's unfortunate and leaves a hole in the market for a somewhat aero, sub-$600 wheelset that hopefully someone will fill.

If you have time to wait for a sale, Flo had a lot of 15-18% discounts around the holidays, which would make a set of Flo 60 aluminum rim wheels under $900.

You might also be able to get more life out of the wheels you have. Flo sells replacement bearings and freehubs, and has Youtube videos on how to replace them.
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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If i were in your position, I would get some HED Belgium C2 rims, White Industry Hubs (come in many colors to choose from), Sapim CX-Ray spokes, and have your buddy build you some custom wheels. That should keep you at or below $1000, relatively light, wide, bomb proof, maintainable, and sexy. The cat 1s in your area with Zipps will be jealous of your build.
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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Hed Ardennes
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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Ditto the HED Ardennes. They are awesome. Give MyBikeShop.com an email or call. They hooked me up with Ardennes Black wheels this fall.

Not as cheap as the old FLO 30s. But, they are very light and strong. And, Ardennes crushes the wide category above everyone else.
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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The bontrager aeolus comp 5's can usually be found new takeoff for around $500. There are a ton of them on craigslist, facebook in my area. Carbon fairing aluminum braking surface.
The prime wheels from wiggle are actually pretty good, esp for the price/weight ratio.
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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I'd go with the Kinlin XR31 rims and build them up around whatever hubs you want. At $60-75 per rim, you could easily stay under $500. I believe they test just as aero as the FLO30 and each rim weighs about 80 grams less.

I personally had a set of AForce AL33 rims just built up. Little more pricey on the rim at $150 each, but I was able to get a deal on all the parts and just had to pay the labor. Full cost came out to $600 with Bitex hubs, Sapim spokes, and brass nipples. 20/24 build came out to 1555 grams with rim tape. 19.6 mm internal width is really nice and a brand new set of 25 mm GP4000S II tires mounted on very easily with just minor thumb pressure.
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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Can't help on the decision making, but if you're looking to off-load the Flo 30s, let me know. I'm looking for a set.

Strava
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Jason N wrote:
I'd go with the Kinlin XR31 rims and build them up around whatever hubs you want.

I was going to suggest exactly the same thing. Those are the clinchers (maybe tubeless compatible even?), and there is a similar tubular version as well. Build them with CXRay spokes on a quality hub (I personally like ultegra or dura-ace hubs since I can service them myself with just cone wrenches) and you've got a fantastic set of wheels. I have a wheelset that's years old built with the IRD Cadence rim (a kinlin with different badging) that despite having been raced and trained upon, is still true and solid and quite lightweight. It was a recommendation of my wheelbuilder for lacing up a 24h powertap hub.
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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Do you work at Google or Facebook?
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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DT Swiss PR1600 Spline 32's. List price is $735, but you can buy them from some european websites for less than $500. 18mm internal width, 22mm external. Most 25's will fit without excessive light-bulbing. Most 23's will fit quite nicely.

I have an archived German language Procycling Magazine velodrome wheel test where the Splin32's hold their own against a variety of 40-55mm carbon wheels, and were only 7 watts off a pair of Roval CLX64s and Swiss Side Hadron 625's at 40kph. If you're interested, PM me and email address and I'll send you the .pdf.

If you prefer a custom hub, you can get just the rims (DT Swiss RR511)

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Jan 17, 19 13:15
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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If the brake track doesn't have a deep groove in it, i'd just clean it up with an emery cloth pad, and throw some new bearings in. Should be <$30 and about 15min work.

If the rims are very worn, you could order some Kinlin 31 rims and swap them onto your current hubs & spokes, pretty sure the ERD is close enough with the Flo 30s to work without recutting spokes.
Last edited by: quadlt250: Jan 17, 19 13:12
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
Do you work at Google or Facebook?

Yes
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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It sounds like I have the option of either buying:

HED Ardennes
Pros
- Lightweight
- Within my price range
- Stiff
Cons
- Shallow / not aero?

HED Jet 6+
Pros
- Aero
- Can be found within price range, close
- Stiff
Cons
- Not lightweight

Then of course a custom build is possible.

I see a lot of suggestions for lighter, less aero wheelsets - since these are for crit racing shouldn't I be focused on Aero?

Thanks for the suggestions so far!
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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I double recommend either of XR31 or AL33 rims with hubs of your choice. Super build kits from bikehubstore.com. November offer some built wheels with AL33. Should be perfect for crits.
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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cbr shadow wrote:
HED Ardennes
Cons
- Shallow / not aero?
I would not classify the Ardennes as shallow and not aero. They are a shapely 24mm depth rim. They may not be as aero as some 30mm rims, but they probably are not bad at all. They are far from a box rim.

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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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My shortlist of budget wheels in that <$500 realm is:

*Fulcrum Quattro LG (recently renamed Fulcrum Racing 4). 35mm deep, 17 mm internal, 23 mm external. 1725g (claimed)

*Kotavelo R42SE. 41mm deep, 18/24mm width. 1714g claimed

Both are a little heavier (~1700g) but not unreasonably so.
Both alumin(i)um.
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [cbr shadow] [ In reply to ]
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cbr shadow wrote:


I see a lot of suggestions for lighter, less aero wheelsets - since these are for crit racing shouldn't I be focused on Aero?

Thanks for the suggestions so far!


Other than the Ardennes, I don't think anyone here has recommended anything that's not at least the equal of FLO 30's, aero-wise. You can make a case for either direction (aero or light) in crit racing, depending what your strengths and weaknesses are. If you're the kind of rider who mostly sits in the pack, but sometimes struggles to keep up with the post-corner surges, the better acceleration of light wheels probably trumps aero. If you're the kind of rider who's likely to lead a long breakaway off the front, aero probably trumps light.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Jan 17, 19 17:13
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
cbr shadow wrote:


I see a lot of suggestions for lighter, less aero wheelsets - since these are for crit racing shouldn't I be focused on Aero?

Thanks for the suggestions so far!


Other than the Ardennes, I don't think anyone here has recommended anything that's not at least the equal of FLO 30's, aero-wise. You can make a case for either direction (aero or light) in crit racing, depending what your strengths and weaknesses are. If you're the kind of rider who mostly sits in the pack, but sometimes struggles to keep up with the post-corner surges, the better acceleration of light wheels probably trumps aero. If you're the kind of rider who's likely lead a long breakaway off the front, aero probably trumps light.
Is there aero info for the Ardennes? I'd be sceptical of anything that shallow having aero claims.
The Al33 appears to be a very close replicant of the Flo.

On the weight side, 200g is a fraction of a percent of total weight, and has almost insignificant impact on acceleration, especially compared to the aero impact (if you want to win a crit you're going to be leading at some point, even if only for the last 50 metres, when you'll really really want aero).
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
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MattyK wrote:

Is there aero info for the Ardennes? I'd be sceptical of anything that shallow having aero claims.


https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog/wind-tunnel-testing-the-al33-xr31tfsw3-and-other-alloys.html





"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Jan 17, 19 17:22
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
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MattyK wrote:
On the weight side, 200g is a fraction of a percent of total weight, and has almost insignificant impact on acceleration, especially compared to the aero impact
200g is a big percentage of the rotational weight of wheels. It is 10% to 15%, and that much weight gain in wheels really feels like a lot. The bike feels more sluggish in small accelerations and around corners. Aero does trump wheel weight, but there is a massive difference in what it feels like. (200g of static weight anywhere else on the bike is not a big change.)

On the thought of aero, the subsequent post from November shows most of the wheels very similar at low yaw. In a criterium, is there ever high yaw? If not, then aero differences in a criterium may be a non-discriminator.
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
MattyK wrote:
On the weight side, 200g is a fraction of a percent of total weight, and has almost insignificant impact on acceleration, especially compared to the aero impact

200g is a big percentage of the rotational weight of wheels. It is 10% to 15%, and that much weight gain in wheels really feels like a lot. The bike feels more sluggish in small accelerations and around corners. Aero does trump wheel weight, but there is a massive difference in what it feels like. (200g of static weight anywhere else on the bike is not a big change.)

On the thought of aero, the subsequent post from November shows most of the wheels very similar at low yaw. In a criterium, is there ever high yaw? If not, then aero differences in a criterium may be a non-discriminator.


Lol "rotational weight". (not saying it's not a thing, just saying it's a very small thing)
secondly, "feels" is a different thing to actual time difference.

https://wattmatters.blog/home/2013/02/the-sum-of-parts.html
(YMMV and all, the figures presented may not be indicative of medium depth rims)
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
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MattyK wrote:
Lol "rotational weight". (not saying it's not a thing, just saying it's a very small thing)
Your original statement that 200g in the wheels has an almost insignificant impact on acceleration is inaccurate. It is very roughly equivalent to 800g on the frame. That is something most folks would notice. Watt Matter's first chart of acceleration from a standing start shows that. There is a material difference in the initial acceleration from a standstill. The benefit of the wheel mass diminishes with speed, but it is quite noticeable. Throw a set of 1,400g wheels on your road bike and try them out. It will blow your mind.

I'm not disputing that over the course of most rides, aero is more significant than wheel mass. However, wheel mass dramatically changes the dynamic feel of a bike. It changes the handling characteristics of the bike too.
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Re: Sweet Spot for Cheap(er) wheels? [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
Your original statement that 200g in the wheels has an almost insignificant impact on acceleration is inaccurate. It is very roughly equivalent to 800g on the frame.

If all the weight is concentrated at outer edge of the tire, it's a 2x factor. Can't get bigger than that.

The "dynamic feel" you mention might be related to inertia. It will take extra force to change the orientation of the wheels with high inertia. If you are throwing your bike bike and forth a lot (not a good practice even in a sprint, IMO) it could even translate into a bit of a benefit for the light wheels.
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