Woo hoo!!!! Way to go. I give my kudos to the police for going after this maniac.

I just wish it did not have to go down this way. I am glad you were not hit by the van.

I started driving in 1982 and since then, the quality of drivers has gone WAY down. I seem to be in the minority that signals for all turns, actually turns my head and looks before making a lane change, etc. I've received a few tickets for moving violations in my early driving years and it made an impression, but people just don't seem to give a damn anymore. God forbid your a cyclist.

Now, in California, Gov. Davis wants to give 3 million illegal immigrants a drivers license. Not a good time to be a cyclist in California. Some of you may object that this is a good policy, but what if a licensed illegal immigrant kills a cyclist, pedestrian, other motorist, etc.? They will get the equivilent of a get out of jail free card and just be deported back to where they came from and free to return to California to start the cycle all over again. If they are here as single persons with no family in California, they have NO ties to the community. I see trouble brewin' and many families of dead people are going to be PISSED! Can you say R-E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N?

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Sean

Now, in California, Gov. Davis wants to give 3 million illegal immigrants a drivers license. Not a good time to be a cyclist in California. Some of you may object that this is a good policy, but what if a licensed illegal immigrant kills a cyclist, pedestrian, other motorist, etc.? They will get the equivilent of a get out of jail free card and just be deported back to where they came from and free to return to California to start the cycle all over again. If they are here as single persons with no family in California, they have NO ties to the community. I see trouble brewin' and many families of dead people are going to be PISSED! Can you say R-E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N?

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I fail to see your point regarding the illegal immigrants. When you are talking about killing a cyclist, pedestrian or a motorist, what difference does it make to the family and community whether the killer is a legal immigrant, illegal immigrant or a US citizen? Do you actually think that the victims of Mr. Pastore were relieved that he got away from his erratic driving because he was legally in the country?

If I lived in California what I would find even more troubling is the fact that these freaking people are here illegally. With the huge budget deficit that you have out there you're paying for a lot of these immigrants medical costs, etc. Now you want to give them a drivers liscence? Who's paying for that? Not the illegal immigrants cause they aren't paying taxes. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I say deport 'em all, but the politicians want the votes.

Well, these people are here because they can make a living. They can make a living because somebody - and I believe most of the time a perfectly legally installed business - gives them the work. If the solution were to deport people, my vote would go towards deporting people who employ illegal workers!

That whole discussion is besides the point I was trying to make, though. I still don't see how relevant the legal status of a road killer is. Can somebody help?

"I still don't see how relevant the legal status of a road killer is. Can somebody help? "

There seems to be an assumption that immigrants, legal or illegal aren't good drivers. I tend to think that it depends where they come from. Somebody from Germany and used to high speed autobahns would likely be a far better driver than the average in North America. People from third world countries, especially those illegally here, quite likely may not have even had driving experience back in their own countries. I don't imagine they would just be "given" a driving license. They'd have to write a test first. Not trying to sound trite, but have you ever driven in Mexico (where most of California's illegals come from)? They really drive crazy there. But then, no worse than Rome or Paris I suppose.

Thank you for your post. I guess I am assuming that they would be submitted to the same tests as the US citizens and legal immigrants in California: a written test first and then a driving test with an examiner in the car.

I have seen good and bad driving in different places in Mexico, as I have seen in other parts of the world. I might add that it took me a while to getting used to the way people drive in Montreal ;) I don't know about Rome, but I am used to driving in Paris, and I think that it really comes down to local habits. Once you get a chance to learn the behavior of the local drivers, then it becomes much easier to drive around them.

Regarding drivers education, I like the way it is in some European countries where people have to complete a minimum time driving in a learning car besides a certified teacher, before taking the driving test.

I realize there are good drivers and bad drivers, regardless of licencing status. My point is that our laws are very fickle and sometimes state and federal governments pick and choose how they handle illegal immigrants.

If a licenced California citizen with three kids who lives in Irvine and works as an investment banker killed someone while driving their car, chances are good that he will not flee the jurisdiction to avoid prosecution because he has a stake in his family, community and California. Now if this person was illegal, they could be jailed until trial. However, once the trial is over and sentencing is proposed, deportation is an option to the prosecution. If the illegal is deported, what kind of sentence is that for vehicular manslaughter? who's to say they won't get back into the state and start the cycle all over again?

I'm sure our resident tri lawyers can diseminate this better than I can, but that's how I see it at this point.

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Sean

funny you mention Paris...

When I arrived in the US, I didn't have a driver's license. I lived 27yrs in Paris, never needed to drive, as parking there is a pain, and traffic is nasty. Metro was doing the trick. Same thing in Australia. Nice weather, everything was close to home. no big deal.

Then in TX, you NEED a car. I went to the DPS. And there oh surprise, it took me 24hrs to get my license.
Read the book. answer some pretty trivial questions. Get an automatic car, drive a bit and you're set to go. I had never driven before. However, I think I drive very safely as I had many years of riding on the road and had developped a sense for feeling THE GUY who is going to do something freakingly stupid....
However, the idea that a 16yo kid can do the same with marginally more driving experience is scary.

In Europe, people have to take many hours (spend many euros). It does not make them better drivers overall (even though the numbers of accidents is actually lower there so are the deaths on the roads) but at least they know what you have to do theoretically. Like not passing a cyclist closer than 5ft away. They still do some pretty stupid things (after being in a car with my wife in Paris, I can surely attest that driving in Paris is quite a challenge), but they will be in general very careful with riders, whereas it seems that in many areas here, a cyclist is just NOT supposed to be there...

For info in France, it's at least 25hrs of driving with a certified instructor, before you can take the driving test. (this will also lighten your wallet by about $1000 sometimes more as most fail the first test).

As someone suggested, despite the no speed limit on the autobahn, there are not more accidents in germany, and in general germans drive very well.
France, Italy and Spain, they also drive well in general (even though the latin temper may take over...)

That said, implementing such a system in the US is hard, mostly because of the "car culture". Many people drive to go 500yds away (I have a neighbor that goes to the mailbox with her car!)...you need your car as early as possible.

Eventually, I still believe that of all the places I rode, Gold Coast in Australia is the most dangerous one with the worst drivers.

>>If a licenced California citizen with three kids who lives in Irvine and works as an investment banker killed someone while driving their car, chances are good that he will not flee the jurisdiction to avoid prosecution because he has a stake in his family, community and California.<<

And, it's a pretty good bet that your Irvine guy is going to have INSURANCE. The illegal immigrant? Probably not. Unisured motorists in California is a huge problem, especially for those of us involved in accidents and who are now (still) dealing with our own insurance companies and UIM coverage.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

"funny you mention Paris... "

Absolutely crazy. Especially when trying to drive around the Arc de Triomphe in a borrowed car. That was quite a few years ago, but I'm sure it's no different now.

Francois, from what I've seen the Germans are the worlds best drivers. They are very disciplined. On the autobahn they ALWAYS move out of the left fast lane into the slower lane on the right when they are not passing. This is something you don't see up here in the Great White North when driving the hwy 401 thru Toronto.

I agree with you about the North American car culture. It's sad to see people drive 500 ft. to go to the convenience store. No wonder we're a nation of obese.

when I started tri, I was living in Paris and had to ride the Place de l'Etoile (where the Arc de Triomphe is)...was fun...did it once...

around this huge round about there is a street that runs just around the place, one block away, which is a one way circular street. It has been nicknamed coward street ;-)

As for Germans, I think it is mandatory to be on the right lane as long as you are not overtaking someone (at least on the autobahn)

Next time you hear Governor Gumby mention the cost of the recall, remember that it is going to cost Calif taxpayers $65 million dollars to issue these licenses out to the illegals. Sad, in a last ditch effort he is trying to win the Mexican/latino vote by signing this bill. Problem is, they did not make up a very significant portion of the vote in the last election anyway.

So, if you are a Californian and you give a rats ass about your job, DO NOT VOTE FOR BUSTAMANTE, he plans to raise our taxes by $10 billion dollars to pay for the illegals (health care & education). We voted in prop 187, lest we forget.

We need businesses to stay in Calif and keep the jobs here. Raising taxes on the wealthiest citizens (who own the companies) and on the companies themselves will do nothing but continue the 1.5 million citizen exodus we have faced for the past 2 years.

http://www.tommcclintock.com/

Gary

Gary,

Tom McClintock may be the best candidate, but your vote needs to count like mine and you need to vote Schwarzenegger. Talk radio has suggested that Arnold can then appoint TM to be Director of Finance for CA. Then, after TM makes a name for himself by getting us out of this fiscal debacle, he's the guy in '06 or '10. Unfortunately, at this time, a vote for TM is a vote for Bustamante.

Flame on.

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Sean

I completely agree, and when I walk up to the booth on Oct 7th, if Arnold is still in the lead over Tom, the Governator will get my vote.



Gary

I have friends from Germany, and they all tell me that getting a drivers license in their home country is not only an expensive process (total cost for someone who passes every test on the first try is close to $7000 USD), but a rather difficult one too. Not only is there a rigorous written and practical examination, but EVERYONE is forced to go to driving school. Fail the test? Guess what? BACK TO SCHOOL. At around $5000 a pop for school and the road test, some people still fail 3 or 4x before they get their license. Needless to say, they have a real appreciation for the privelege of driving, and I would guess that losing their license means a hell of a lot more as well.

And then there's just the cultural thing where Europeans tend to like and respect cyclists, as opposed to loathing them for being on the roads as drivers do in North America.

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Here in Tokyo, a similar situation. Getting a drivers license requires attendance in an expensive and time consuming class which leads to the written test and hands-on test. Accidents and/or infractions will dock points on your license which can lead to revocation. No accidents or infractions for 5 years, and you receive the highly prized gold license status.

Because (shopping) bicycles are used on such a widepread scale, the law discriminates heavily against cars when an altercation occurs. If I were to crash into a car, it would be viewed as the cars fault and I would expect and receive new kit from his insurance co. Motorists tend to adopt a very proactive stance towards cyclists because of this.

Now if only someone would invent cycling lanes or road shoulders on major streets...

[quote]Francois, from what I've seen the Germans are the worlds best drivers. They are very disciplined. On the autobahn they ALWAYS move out of the left fast lane into the slower lane on the right when they are not passing.[/quote]

You'd learn to do this pretty quickly when there are Mercs, BMWs and Porsches cruising at 130mph plus in the fast lane ;-)

I was on holiday in Malta about 20 years ago and couldn't figure out if they drive on the left or the right there. After about 2 days I realised that they drive IN THE SHADE. I live in Greece now and have only seen worse drivers in Portugal. Lots of Greeks (not all, but a great many) drive like blind people with a bad cocaine habit (this post is in no way meant to be derogatory to blind people or drug addicts, I am just trying to illustrate the standard of driving here).

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Put the bunny back in the box.

dude, 130mph? that's not Germany....we drove several times (my wife) there above 120-130 and where overtaken by God knows what, but they were fast!

I have no clue how big or small a problem the situation you are describing is or would be. You may be right, I just don't know.

As a Southern California roadie, my experience with blue collar Hispanic drivers has been positive. I ride by agricultural areas all the time and I find them, by and large to be extra conscientious and careful when passing a cyclist. Many Hispanics ride bikes instead of cars, perhaps this is why.The worst (by far) are the Soccer Moms in the Hummer H2's, Caynoneros and Ford Enormos. A close second is any 16, 17 or 18 year-old with a driver's license.

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No sidewindin bushwackin, hornswaglin, cracker croaker is gonna rouin me bishen cutter!

Who's going to pick our vegetables?

Who's going to wash dishes?

Who's going to dig ditches?

Who's going to do all the crappy jobs no self-respecting citizen will do?

If you think we aren't benefiting from the labor of illegal immigrants, you are mistaken. If employers payed a legal wage and provided legal benefits for all the work done by illegal immigrants, we'd be eating $10/pound bell peppers, $20 hamburgers and the manual labor costs would be high enough for most of us to consider digging our own sprinkler ditches.

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No sidewindin bushwackin, hornswaglin, cracker croaker is gonna rouin me bishen cutter!

No, no, I said 130mph+ ;-)

I grew up reading my Dad's car magazines, where they'd take the latest exotica (invariably Italian) to attempt 200mph on the 'bahns.

Sure Audi make the fastest stationwagon in the world. Limited to 155mph, but reputed to do 190mph if the limiter is removed!

Gotta have your wits about you with that sort of hardware around.