No kidding? Did you do the 4th Street Clinic Tri in April? I did the mountain bike part on a relay team. (My in-laws were feeling out the triathlon thing to see if they wanted to do one solo. They must've liked it because they did a sprint tri about a month later.)

1. A year or two back, there was a backstroke study by Russell Mark (US Swimming's biomechanical guru) floating around and the conclusion was that, even though all the thought about teaching proper backstroke was Roll, Baby Roll, the elite level backstrokers they were breaking down and diagramming actually often swum significantly flatter that what you'd expect to find. Could be because it does take energy to move from side to side and too much body roll ends up costing you more in terms of fatigue than you gain from better physics.

Given the similarities between free and back, I'd bet that there's a similar point where you can go past an optimum amount of body roll.

2. I'm in the camp that says put the head wherever it's most comfortable. However, you shouldn't be relying on it to keep your hips in place when your back muscles/abs/core muscles will go a much more stable job of keeping your butt up instead.

Dr. Hall


it seems that somewhere around 50-75g is closer to the mark, meaning the ATP is recycled ~1000 times per day.


The number of studies are limited, but looking at short term power and strength, ATP supplementation has no effect as a single dose ( http://www.jissn.com/content/5/1/3 [/url]), nor as a chronic dose ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15179168).


ATP is broken down and absorbed as adenosine and phosphate, and seems to be reconstituted as ATP in plasma. I can't find anything suggesting skeletal muscle ATP (or AMP, or ADP) stores are enhanced.


There is a broad body of evidence demonstrating that Cr supplementation effects performance. It's not an issue of belief - it does work, especially for the % of the population that show significant increases in [Cr] after loading. Adenosine and Creatine are not the same thing, and even subtle changes in chemical structure can drastically effect the function of a protein. There is evidence that supplementation with Cr increases skeletal muscle [Cr], but the same cannot be said for ATP supplementation.



Elevated plasma ATP does seem to cause vasoconstriction [edit correction: vasodilation] in rats and rabbits, but chronic (30 day) supplementation in rats actually resulted in a decreased in plasma ATP....not exactly the response you'd want, I suspect.


If I could point to one fundamental issue related the potential effectiveness of ATP ingestion in improving sport performance, it would be this: training induces adaptations which result in an increase in the rate of ATP synthesis, both through increased capacity, and enhanced enzyme activity. But the pool of ATP in the body doesn't seem to be rate limiting, and I haven't yet found anything to suggest that the resting concentration of ATP in skeletal muscle is higher in response to training. These issues would seem to contradict the notion that increasing skeletal muscle ATP concentration via supplementation (assuming that were even possible) would have a significant ergogenic effect.



Respectfully, your posts on this are pure conjecture. If I've missed something, I'd love to see the studies - and I'm looking forward to seeing the studies on Liquid Oxygen you mentioned earlier - but I think you're fighting an uphill battle.

CT

you might like this

http://advan.physiology.org/...content/full/25/2/70

I'll bite.
What are these supplements and where can I get them?
Just by chance do you have some independent scientific studies -to support the "instantly noticeable"?
How do you know that "none of which are illegal"?

I would imagine that none of the "supps" that you have exposed yourself to have FDA approval.
None of which have been tested by independent labs to find the contents are only that purported.
There are of course many reports of athletes taking "legal" supplements as claimed by the maker which test positive when looking for PEDs.

The "supplements" for both weight loss and strength gain are absent FDA testing for content and purity so that the thyroid hormone and growth hormone / testosterone respectively found in such "supplements" only come to light when an athlete test positive or adverse effects become so common that the FDA has to ban the selling of the "supplement".

http://www.ergogenics.org/300.html

http://www.ispub.com/.../ijen/vol3n2/otc.xml

KLG

Err, you'll be going your fastest once you've finished applying force, not just beginning.. and as long as your hand's accelerating through the water, you'll be going fastest later in the stroke. Here's the velocity plot for Popov.

Understood. I think you meant to say that ATP causes vasodilation not vasoconstriction. I am sure you know more about it than I do. However, I would not be surprised to learn that the benefit we are seeing (anecdotally) from the use of ATP is related purely to this response.
One thing I believe we can all(?) agree on is that there is a place for the use of supplements in athletic performance. Our World Team swimmers were taking approximately 10 different products (all legal) in preparing for Beijing.

Regards,

Gary Sr.

correct, I meant vasodilation (now corrected above). it's possible that it effects performance via vasodilation - certainly other vasodilators applied topically can increase VO2 during exercise, but I haven't seen a study on ATP supplementation and endurance performance, yet.

thanks
CT

Dear Tim,

The graph actually points out exactly what I was stating and that is that the fastest velocity occurs in the most streamlined position. You are looking at the back hand, but notice the front hand is in the extended, catch/lift position (or power position) as I call it. What you call later in the stoke is the beginning of the next stroke (and both arms are applying force). Also notice that the slowest velocity occurs when the arm is pointed straight down, where the greatest amount of drag is induced by the (upper) arm. I wouldn't have expected the drop in velocity to be this great, but am not surprised, considering our shape.

Gary

Your lack of understanding of the basic principles in human propulsion is as amusing as it is mind-boggling.

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i think he might know a bit more about swimming fast than you tho paulo ;)

I'm sure he does. But clearly physiology and the physics of swimming are not his strong suit.

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Not really.. it's the fastest velocity because its the end of the stroke, nothing to do with the streamlining. The slowest velocity occurs at the last moment before power is applied again. The streamlining/drag merely effects the rate of slowing down.

To separate out the two effects, if you were to do an exagerated catch-up you would be still going fastest at the end of the pull, not when you reach the most streamlined two-arms forward position.

Not to be rude, but this pretty basic stuff.

Sorry Tim,

I respectfully disagree. Because two arms are involved simultaneously in a portion of the underwater pull, one cannot separate the power effect of either arm.
According to Dr. Jan Prins, the only way to accomplish true velociity of the body is to use a stationary camera and a stationary point of reference behind the swimmer.Then to determine the propulsive power (velocity of body) of the hand throughout the pull, the swimmer must propel with one arm only. no kick. no second arm.
I still think you are not looking at this correctly, but it clearly cannot isolate the effects or power of one arm vs the other.

Gary

Well that depends on how you swim.

Here's a random bloke swimming without both arms pulling simulataneously at any point. When do you think he is at his highest velocity: beginning of the catch, or on finishing the stroke?

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

In both the picture and in real life, the beginning of one stroke and the finish of the other occur simultaneously. So the answer to your question is both. Unfortunately, in this analysis you shared, one cannot separate out the contribution of power of the two arms. My opinion, much more power at the beginning than at the end.....but how much each part contributes to this point of peak velocity, we don't know from this. But you do see where the velocity is the lowest in the middle of the underwater stroke when there is only one arm pulling, right?

Oh do behave... he doesn't start the catch until his recovering arm is by his head.. there's no moment where both arms are pulling.

Why pay for cable when we have ST...

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In Reply To

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but how much each part contributes to this point of peak velocity, we don't know from this.[/reply]
Only if "we" don't know the differences and relationships between velocity, acceleration, force and power

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Dear FLA Jill,

Rotate all the time, whether breathing or not. You can certainly roll too much but i have rarely seen it. In order to bend the elbow to reduce drag on backstroke and not break the surface with your hand, you have to roll the shoulder. Look down when swimming slow and up perhaps 10 degrees (no more) when swimming fast. Looking at your hands forces your hips lower in the water.

Gary

Conrad. My theory is this: Fast sprinters are planing to a degree on the water due to the very high speed. If your shoulders are out of the water, then your head can be as high as you want with no drag penalty.
But as the pace slows, such as in longer races and us mere mortals, the shoulders are in the water. So ANY amount of head above the surface of the water creates an eddy behind the head as the water rushes to fill this spot. You should be able to barely see your swim suit with your lower peripheral vision for the lowest drag in the water...ie almost looking back underneath you.

You should be able to readily feel this difference when you push off the wall streamlined. Just try it a few times with your head down and with your head up. Very noticable.
One thing you must note if you're going to compete in swimming, is that you should also never look up at the wall you are approaching before your flip turn. It's a bad habit. You must learn to key off the 'T' of the lane line or you will scrub speed as you enter the turn. It could be a quarter second per lap lost.

I certainly don't have 40+ years in the water, but would love to describe something new I tried as a result of this thread.

In today's workout rather than exhaling slowly underwater I began holding my breath until the last second, then forcefully exhaling before the next breath. It made a noticable difference in my perceived exertion through the workout. I found how important it is to hold my breath off the wall especially.
Up 'til now I've been slowly exhaling every moment my face is in the water.

I didn't try breathing every stroke, but that's something I'm saving for a solo workout, not one with a coach and a clock.

Hi Gary Sr....if I can paraphrase your last post, when you urge us to get out of stop and go and get on the highway, basically you are staying is that we want to get as close as possible to sustainining our momentum and not slow down between strokes....the way to do this is higher stroke rate (which also gives us more oxygen....which is supported by your previous posts). So the one beat dolphin kick is there to increase cadence cause 2 beat dolphin gives us more time between strokes? correct?

This is all excellent stuff.

Monty, just these post by Gary Sr. have encouraged me to get back in the pool, cause I am motivated to try new stuff.

As for Tim Sleepless and others, you guys can win the war of being smarter than Gary Sr on an internet forum. There are others on this forum that are willing to hear him out, separate the golden nuggets that will help us and go apply them.

Gary Sr. please keep posting from your years of experience. Most athletes like myself do not have access to this level of experience and background and are HIGHLY appreciative of your taking time to enrich our sporting lives for free.

My suggestion is that each time you start a new topic, open up a new thread so it is easily searchable in the future as a reference material.

sincerely

Dev

Thanks Dev,

Appreciate the comments. Go on our site (http://www.theraceclub.com) and try all of the drills i explain in more detail. I am sure they will help you...and yes you only get one dolphin per arm stroke. Not easy but it is sure to get you moving!

Gary Sr.

What if Dr. Hall is wrong? That's why the scientific process has peer review: nobody should take anyone's word for something just because that person is successful. Give it more weight? Perhaps. But to blithely accept at face value anything said is the wrong path.

How many people would be tossing their money down the tubes if nobody called Dr. Hall on that liquid oxygen nonsense? How many people would be breathing every arm stroke thinking that Perkins and other greats do it, when in fact none of the top swimmers do it, if people here didn't call Dr. Hall on it?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Gary, as one who is the same age, and followed many of you during a golden age of swimming, I wanted to thank you so much for your input. Let me tell you, though, that the ST gang will remind you of the toughness that Doc taught you at IU. Keep supplying us with the nuggets, as many of us are honored to have someone like you contribute. It's funny that within the past 3 weeks, I have had the pleasure to get great comments from 2 legends...Gary Hall, and Frank Shorter.

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