Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [nfreeman] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 12:37

Post #151 of 284 (7657 views)

thoughts from a poor swimmer.

nfreeman - I would guess you're right that the hands will move backwards. It seems like the big difference is in how much. In a solid medium, i.e. the rock example, you are moving the solid item, but so incrementally as to be non-existant. In the liquid medium, how much your hand moves back is going to be dictated by how much drag you have. i.e. the goal is to reduce drag. I think when you look at the top level swimmers, they have thier technique dialed to the point they create very little drag which when combined with their speed allows them to get some benefit from hydroplaning. So for the top level swimmers, their hand stay virtually motionless and they are able to pull on the water instead of push it backwards because their dragis so much lower. For the rest of us with poor technique(i.e. high drag) and lack of speed, we end up having to push more than pull.

FWIW -I have noticed that when I think about pulling the water as a solid object instead of pushing the water back, my stroke gets smoother and more efficient. I'm still working on the body rotation though.

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [nfreeman] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 12:41

Post #152 of 284 (7650 views)

In Reply To:

I agree its not efficient- this is why you are faster with paddles on your hands (less slip).

Im not sayding hand slip is a GOAL, i am however saying the laws of physics require it.

So, if I'm not faster with paddles what would that mean? Seriously.

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [squatch] [ In reply to ]

SlayerHatebreed

Feb 18, 09 12:55

Post #153 of 284 (7632 views)

3 choices:

You either have them on wrong, are dropping your catch pretty badly or have poor lat and shoulder strength. Everyone should be faster with paddles.

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [nfreeman] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 13:16

Post #154 of 284 (7589 views)

Good article! I will not dispute that there is a combination of drag and lift forces at play in the pull. But i cannot agree with you about the net hand velocity in the water. You cannot use these videos to determine the exact entry and exit of the hand, because the camera is moving above the swimmer and the angle of reference is changing. I suspect if were to measure the exact entry and exit points of his hand from a stationary camera, one would find them to be very close.
One thing is very clear about these videos. Phelps may be the least brick like of any human being...and he works at it. His streamline creates a uniarm above him on starts and turns and his elbow height is off the charts. All to reduce drag.

Gary Sr.

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [SlayerHatebreed] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 13:31

Post #155 of 284 (7563 views)

I have extremely strong lats and shoulders from rock climbing, so that is not it. I am fairly certain I have them on correctly, which would leave dropping the catch.... That may be a problem. How would I know if I was dropping the catch? I guess I don't feel like I drop the catch, I feel a very solid connection with my pull from the moment my hand enters to when it leaves. When I have paddles, it feels no different, and for the same exertion, I go the same speed.

Last edited by: squatch: Feb 18, 09 13:33

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [squatch] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 13:42

Post #156 of 284 (7549 views)

In Reply To:

I have extremely strong lats and shoulders from rock climbing, so that is not it. I am fairly certain I have them on correctly, which would leave dropping the catch.... That may be a problem. How would I know if I was dropping the catch? I guess I don't feel like I drop the catch, I feel a very solid connection with my pull from the moment my hand enters to when it leaves. When I have paddles, it feels no different, and for the same exertion, I go the same speed.

With the "same exertion," you are doing the same work: your force applied per square inch of surface (hand, arm, paddle) per unit time is now less than it was before. Same exertion & more surface area => less force per unit of surface per unit time => same speed. If your hand speed remained the same, then you'd be pushing back with more force per sq inch per second. One of the points of using paddles is that you can increase your exertion, thereby increasing the force/sq inch/second.

Paddles aren't magic: they won't make you go faster with the same effort. They will allow you to go faster with more effort, where that increased effort without paddles would likely see you thrashing inefficiently.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 14:13

Post #157 of 284 (7521 views)

This is confusing.

Let me see if I get it. We'll start off the cycle with a breath on the left side. As I stroke with my right arm, I exhale the breath I just took and whip my head back to the right and breathe. Now I hold this breath as my left arm strokes. Right arm strokes and I breathe on the right side. Once again, I exhale as my left arm strokes and I breath on the left.

Is that right? That is a LOT of breathing and on top of trying to worry myself with an EVF etc etc etc. With this model I count 4 strokes and 3 breaths (4:3 or 60:45). Under my current model I get 6 strokes and 2 breaths (3:1 or 60:20)

I am guilty of the 1/3 breathing thing, but I've been working on this rhythm instead: Breathe on the same side twice, wait a stroke then breathe 2x on the oppposite side. So it's Breathe LEFT (stroke stroke) Breathe LEFT (stroke stroke stroke) Breathe RIGHT (stroke stroke) Breath Right (stroke stroke stroke). With this model, I am getting 10 strokes and 4 breaths (5:2 or 60:24).

So we have current method (60:20) work in progress (60:24) and GHS method (60:45). Clearly his method is much higher. Incidentally, single sided breathing offers a ratio of 60:30.

Someone mentioned opportunity cost and that bears repeating. If I get so wrapped up trying to increase my air uptake that I forget how to swim it's kind of a moot point right?

Intriguing, I will give it a try tomorrow to see how I do with this...

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Just Old] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 14:16

Post #158 of 284 (7517 views)

Sorry, Maybe I'm dense here. Is the goal of using paddles then to build strength or technique?

If it is just to build strength, then forget it, I have enough. Looking for more efficiency, not strength.

If the goal of paddles is to improve technique- Does using paddles change the way you catch the water, or make it easier to feel it if you're catching poorly/well? I ask because I don't notice much difference.

Sorry about the bit of thread hijack as well.

Welcome to ST Gary! Thanks for the insight.

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Turbomentor] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 14:30

Post #159 of 284 (7503 views)

Dear Turbomaster,

A cycle is two strokes in freestyle. So for each cycle you breathe once to the left then once to the right. Then you hold for one stroke and begin a new cycle, but this time the first breath is initiated to the right, then the left. Pausing for one stroke seems to pacify the brain and alternating the first breath of the cycle in each direction seems to soothe the semicircular canals. Hope this helps. It takes a little practice, but I love the added O2.

Gary

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [squatch] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 14:37

Post #160 of 284 (7489 views)

In addition to your time, you will need to measure stroke rate (# arm strokes per minute) and distance per stroke (divide the # strokes by the distance swum ie 50 yards or meters) to know how efficient you really are. Distance per stroke is perhaps the most revealing.

Gary Sr.

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 14:38

Post #161 of 284 (7491 views)

Thanks Dr. Hall.

I believe you've worked with my swim coach a few times...Gary Fahey. He is trying to get me to breathe more often and I am stubbornly resistant. But I know I need to work on it; the 3:1 isn't cutting it.

As to the O2 question though, isn't it not so much a question of O2 uptake but O2 delivery? Most reasonably fit triathletes don't have a problem with O2 uptake...that is why VO2 max is such a critical number. As i understand the layman's version of VO2 Max...it's the max amount of O2 your body can take in and deliver...and beyond that you can only sustain exercise for relatively short durations. The secret is being able to operate at or just below your VO2 max threshold for long periods of time ie making your lactate threshold closer and closer to your VO2 Max.

So I'm not sure I will try your breathing method just yet! I think I'll work on the middle of the road technique first. But I will at least try it once or twice to see if my brain can process it. I'm still trying hard to work on EVF and catch, much less a fairly complicated breathing routine!

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [TJ56] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 15:02

Post #162 of 284 (7460 views)

Dear TJ56,

Please ignore the doubters and try it. I am in the process of getting some published studies on it. It is not, as one reader correctly pointed out, actually liquid oxygen, but rather O2 dissolved in high concentration (25%) of a slightly chorinated salt water. When held under the tongue (very vascular and thin membrane, similar to alveoli) the O2 seems to readily transport across into the blood stream.
We have a team of swimmers from Slovenia training here and I was showing the head coach a bottle this morning and she pulled out a bottle of the same stuff from her purse she had purchased on the airplane on the way over here. It was made by the same company (so much for the secret) and it turns out is the number one selling product on the duty free carts on international flights for several airlines.
Anyway, let me know if it works for you.

Gary Sr.

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 15:11

Post #163 of 284 (7448 views)

Gary, In your opinion, who are the three (or so) fundamentally, and technically, perfect swimmers out there today?

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Turbomentor] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 15:14

Post #164 of 284 (7446 views)

Dear Turbometer,

Yes. I know Gary. He is an excellent coach. Please give him my regards.
The VO2 max is determined by all of the cardiopulmonary systems involved, but it represents the most oxygen you can deliver to your cells during maximal exercise. Our requirements for ATP during maximal exercise go up tremendously and so too our need for oxygen. We can improve the system components with training, but getting more 02 delivered to the alveoli is probably the easiest and quickest change we can make via our breathing pattern.
I know this breathing pattern isn't for everyone and some may not even need it, but for us old folks (me), it is kinda nice.

Gary Sr.

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]

Walter P3 Doyle

Feb 18, 09 15:27

Post #165 of 284 (7432 views)

In Reply To:

Dear TomAnnapolis,

You make a very good point. Lifting the head too high is one of the most common mistakes swimmers make in the freestyle. The best reasons I can come for this fault are two: 1) we like to know where we are going and 2) we swim defensively....that is if we are in a lane with 5,6 or 7 other swimmers circling or in a tri swim with kicks and feet and blood in the water, we watch out for the drunk swimmer going down the wrong side of the lane or the vicious triathlete who refuses to cut his or her toenails.
LIfting the head creates two big problems. First, it causes the hips and legs to sink significantly increasing pressure drag as we move through the water. Second, with the head above the surface we also increase surface (wave) drag, further slowing us down.
In our camps, i can easily teach swimmers with some selected drills to get their heads down (though most can't believe how far down they should be) but keeping them down is another matter. It is as if the head is made of cork. As soon as they take the first breath, the head goes right back to the high position. Here are some tips to help you.
Your line of sight should be either straight down at the bottom of the pool or even back 10 degrees or so. If you are looking forward in the pool at all, your head is too high. Second, buy a monosnorkel by Finis (you can also find on our website http://www.theraceclub.com). Don't just use the snorkel (which eliminates the need to side breath), but place a tennis ball between your chin and your chest and hold it there while you swim with the snorkel. That is the head position you want to maintain (even while side breathing). Do this enough and you will get it....but take out insurance for swimming related injuries because you should never be able to see that swimmer coming down the wrong side of the lane!

Respectfully,

Gary Sr.
--------------------------------------------------

Fractured my hand doing this....twice, by hitting the wall.

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]

timeforacompact

Feb 18, 09 15:33

Post #166 of 284 (7420 views)

"The VO2 max ........but it represents the most oxygen you can deliver to your cells during maximal exercise."

My understanding of VO2max is different. it is not what you can 'deliver', it's what you can use.
VO2max, i understand, is measured as O2 going in minus O2 coming out equals O2 used - done at max intensity. So there are several limiters. How much capacity you have in your lungs for O2, how much Hgb to pick up the O2, how much of the O2 in the blood gets to the place it's needed, how much get's picked up by the muscles/cells, how much picked up is used. Then there is also the issue of CO2 removal.

So, breathing patterns and increasing O2 intake will not necessarily be of any use if the additional O2 is not used. You are simply moving it in and out of the lungs and you may be compromising CO2 removal.

______________________________________
"Competetive sport begins where healthy sport ends"

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [JDAD] [ In reply to ]

Walter P3 Doyle

Feb 18, 09 15:55

Post #167 of 284 (7404 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

And yes, I did have over 100,000 patients in 22 years of practice in Arizona. I must have been doing something right.

I'll call BS on this too. Maybe 100,000 patient encounters, not 100,000 unique patients.

If in fact you did see 100,000 unique patients, then I don't doubt you had problems with the AZ board, you weren't caring for your patients, rather moving them in and out the door.

I find it hard to believe that this poster is actually Dr. Hall. Anyone with his credentials wouldn't come on this board and spout such nonsense. Maybe I should create a username "Michael Phelps" and try to explain why I had that pipe in my hands.

I call BS on this whole thread.
------------------------------

And the really scary part.....he is FL working with Lee Zolman of Body Zen!

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [rhane] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 17:25

Post #168 of 284 (7341 views)

Dear Rhane,

Great question. First tell me the distance. Second, the strength of the swimmer. Pick any finalist in the Olympics. They match their technique to their strengths...they are all pretty close to perfect. Underwater, Natalie Coughlin, Phelps and Amaury Leveaux seem to be the best.

Gary Sr.

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 17:47

Post #169 of 284 (7321 views)

Gary, for the 1500m who would you say is your top pick for perfection?

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [rhane] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 18:00

Post #170 of 284 (7307 views)

Even though he didn't win last year, Grant Hackett still rules as 1500 King as far as I am concerned. Gary

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 18:48

Post #171 of 284 (7263 views)

Dunno what brand of liquid oxygen supplement Dr. Hall is selling, but if one simply google's liquid oxygen supplement there are about 35 companies who want to sell you their brand of liquid oxygen.

And the term is very misleading...it is not liquified Oxygen, that is, O2 that has been cooled to a liquid state. It is simply liquid that has O2 molecularly bonded to it in such a way that it decouples the chemical bonds to the liquid upon contact with other substances.

Can't vouch for the other stuff as to it's effectiveness, but liquid oxygen doesn't seem to be as big a secret weapon as once thought!

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Turbomentor] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 19:21

Post #172 of 284 (7229 views)

Late joiner here...

Super-oxygenated water has been a scam for at least 20 years. I remember seeing ads for it in bicycling mags back in the 90's.

And the ATP pill thing is so laughable. The body goes through hundreds of pounds of ATP during an event like a HIM - I used to do those calculations for my biochem classes when I taught them. Taking a 100 mg ATP pill would be like a grain of sand in the Sahara, even if all the ATP in the pill did make it to a muscle cell. ATP is continually recycled.

Just wrong on so many levels. Purveyors of these kinds of supplements feed on the gullibility of the ignorant.

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Hokiebird] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 09 22:18

Post #173 of 284 (7160 views)

100's of pounds eh? would love to see the math behind that one. Never tried these supps but have tried MANY more and some work really well, some I notice nothing

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Turbomentor] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 09 4:48

Post #174 of 284 (7097 views)

In Reply To:

Dunno what brand of liquid oxygen supplement Dr. Hall is selling, but if one simply google's liquid oxygen supplement there are about 35 companies who want to sell you their brand of liquid oxygen.

And the term is very misleading...it is not liquified Oxygen, that is, O2 that has been cooled to a liquid state. It is simply liquid that has O2 molecularly bonded to it in such a way that it decouples the chemical bonds to the liquid upon contact with other substances.

Can't vouch for the other stuff as to it's effectiveness, but liquid oxygen doesn't seem to be as big a secret weapon as once thought!

So hydrogen peroxide?? That's just silly.

Last edited by: leggett24: Feb 19, 09 4:49

Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [leggett24] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 09 5:10

Post #175 of 284 (7088 views)

wow this thread is too long to read.
OT. are you coming to Sugarloaf this year?

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

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