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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [cramer] [ In reply to ]
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When I am breathing hard running fast, it is 90+ breaths per minute, corresponding to right foot strikes (don't know why, perhaps I push off harder with the right side so better synchronzation like breathing out while bench pressing....). This is typically my breathing rate for the final 5K of any race or any distance, or for mile or lower repeats. In a tri, I breath every second out of the gate and every third once things settle down. Assuming 88 strokes per 100m at 90 second per 100m, that is still only 45 breaths breathing every second stroke for 90 seconds or 30 for 1 minute. While running hard I am breathing 3x the rate of swimming.

When I watch slow swimmers, they have these really long slow strokes, and they are perhaps covering 100m in 2 minutes or 50 m per minute.....breathing once every 3 strokes at say 25 strokes per length.....50/3 = 16 breaths per minute. Of course they are winded. Even every second stroke gets them to 25 breaths per minute. You ever notice how these guys are constantly out of breath....they are doing a hypoxia workout on a continuous basis, even though their actual work is not that high.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Hall


Let me add my voice to those thanking you for your presence here and the tips you’ve provided. You’ve already made a valuable contribution with some thought provoking suggestions on breathing, head position and high arm pull – and I probably missed a few. I’m anxious to try some of them and look forward to your future installments. If you keep your swimming tips separate from your product claims, you will find numerous Slowtwitchers eager to hear your wisdom. As for the latter, you’ve seen that this forum has members with sufficient scientific background to challenge the underlying mechanism of any performance enhancing device and experience with scientific studies to know when they are misleading. Bring you A game when you talk about your products.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [nfreeman] [ In reply to ]
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A few questions about technique

I got a kick out of this. You drag the guy through the mud, then ask him for swim advice before he dusts himself off.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [nfreeman] [ In reply to ]
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Thankyou all for your support. I am admittedly not an expert on supplements or nutrition, but i am not giving up on trying to convince all of you that 3 square meals a day is not enough to cut it for your best performances. In 3 Olympics we have witnessed that. With supplements, weeding out the good stuff from the bad, the placebo from the non-placebo, the legal from the illegal can be tricky. But for now let's stick to the swimming technique.

First, a few more salient points about Fundamental #1 Thick as a Brick. I first learned about the importance of head position in freestyle back in 2000 when i got on the tow rope at the Phoenix Swim Club. This was a clever device invented by Dr. Marty Hull of Stanford that tows a swimmer from above, via a belt at faster than race speeds. The idea, based on that fact that drag coefficients increase at higher speed, was to determine some of the little things that would make the stroke more efficient. Anyway, I discovered that by holding a tight streamline for 50 meters (under 20 seconds) my time would increase about a second by simply lifting my head, as opposed to keeping my chin tucked down. Same force...one simple change...one second difference. That is why little things (with our brick-like bodies) like head position and elbow position make a big difference.
With all due respect, you are wrong about the hand. Doc Counsilman, 30 + years ago at Indiana University sat on the bottom of the diving well with his scuba tank and 16 mm fast speed camera and filmed Mark Spitz and me with room and pool lights out. He put little strobe lights on our finger tips and filmed our hand movement as we swam across the pool. What he discovered is that the hand does not move forward or backward during the freestyle pull, but rather out, then in then out again. In other words, a sculling motion. The hand is not used as a paddle, as you suggest, but rather creates lift (Bernoulli's principal) to power us forward in the water. therefore, the drag (in the forward direction) is not created by the hand and little by the forearm, but rather the top of the arm, which is moving forward at a speed slightly less than the body. Next time you swim, if you are a decent swimmer, notice where your hand enters the water at the beginning of the stroke and where it exits for the recovery. You will find it is just about the exact same spot.

Now, on to Fundamental #2 Swim with your Body.

About 98% of the swimmers who come to TRC for technique camps, swim very flat (flat swimming means you are swimming like a surfboard that grew arms and legs). I call it the survival stroke, because it is the kind of stroke one adopts to finish 10 X 400 freestyle with 10 seconds rest, or any other long aerobic set. It is also a survival stroke because if you ever crashed in the middle of the ocean, it would be your best chance for swimming ashore. Why? Because it is easier....not faster, easier.
But no one said swimming fast is easy and nearly all of the fundamentals of fast swimming either require a cognizant effort (like keeping the head down and elbows up) or real work, like rotating the body. So why do we want to rotate the body while swimming?
I can actually think of 3 reasons why we want to rotate our bodies along the long axis while swimming that I believe to be true. There are probably some more I haven't thought of. First, if the rotation is relatively fast (snapping from one side to the other as opposed to turning like a rotisserie chicken), there is energy transfered to the forward motion of the body, similar to a bullet or torpedo spinning down the barrel to gain speed. Second, when one shoulder is down and the other up, it puts the arm doing the underwater pull into a stronger position. That arm gains mechanical advantage by engaging more muscle groups than pulling with the shoulder flat on the water.
Third, and perhaps most important (and I give credit for this thought to Dr. Jan Prins at the University of Hawail, who has one of the brightest biomechanical swimming minds on the planet) is the use of the core (hips, lower back, abs) as a stabilizing force for the pull.
Dr. Prins published a paper where he measured the velocity of baseball pitchers and found when he put them in the water (treading), the velocity of the ball was about half of the throw from a pitching mound. Why? Because there is no stable force (like the pitching rubber) in the water to push against. So what exactly are we pushing or pulling against when we are moving through the water in the middle of our ocean or lake swim? Our core. When we initiate the catch of the arm pull, we do so with the hip turned and stabilized (not rotating). This is called the connection. It is the most powerful propulsive point in the stroke (my belief...never proven to my knowledge). Then as we 'hold' the water and move forward we do so against a core that counter rotates, ie it rotates back against the pull to allow more 'traction'.
Tiger Woods could probably swing a golf club with his arms only and still hit the ball over 200 yards. Yet when he engages his shoulders, hips, core, legs into the swing, the ball goes about 350 yards. More effort to use the body, but a lot more power. Same is true in swimming.
Mike Bottom, arguably the best sprint coach in the world, further divides swimming with the body into 3 techniques: Shoulder driven, Hip driven and Body (Core) driven (which associates with a straight arm recovery). Nearly all of the fastest sprinters in the world use a shoulder driven technique. Distance swimmers are split, but most of the best ones use a hip (leg) driven technique (Phelps, Hackett, Thorpe, Hoff for example) In order to use a hip driven technique, one needs extraordinarlly strong legs which usually means many years of age group swimming. Even if you had them, i would likely recommend you not use the hip driven technique in the triathlon. Here is why.
The objective of the swim in the triathlon is kind of like the butterfly in the IM. It is really a bike/run race with a swim setting the stage. The IM is really a back/breast/free race. The objective of the swim leg is not to win the race, but rather to not put you in a position to lose the race.
The swim can destroy your tri in a number of ways. Here are just a few examples. You can be so slow coming out of the water, you are already out of contention. You could be in the pack or hunt, but had to work so hard to get there that you are spent. Or you can excel at the swimming leg but by using a hip/leg driven technique to do so, you become easy prey for the bikers and runners (a common mistake of many swimmers turned triathletes).
The finals of the men's 1500 swim in Beijing was an interesting race because the first four finishers (only a few seconds apart) used two very distinctively different techniques. Malouli (sp? Tunisia via USC) and Hackett (first and second) used a classic long 6 beat kick hip-driven technique while the Canadian and Russian (sorry don't remember the names) swam the race with a shoulder driven, higher stroke rate, mostly pull-propulsion freestyle. But they all used their bodies in one way or another.
My advice in a triathlon. Even if you are an accomplished hip-driven freestyler, learn to adopt a shoulder driven, mostly arm propulsion freestyle, keeping the head down (when not occsionally looking up to see where you are headed) the elbows high and swim on the freeway. I will explain what I mean by that tomorrow. And breathe as often as it makes sense. Save the legs. You will slip and glide through the swim with less effort and put yourself in better position to have the best tri of your life.

Respectfully,

Gary Sr.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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It's a pleasure to watch your son compete, he's a great champion. As for the advice, I hope you have more to offer - I enjoy reading these posts.
Last edited by: rhane: Feb 18, 09 9:37
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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These posts have been fun to read, so thanks! The detail in each post has been great.
The timing on the breathing seems to be something that takes a little practice. I also felt quite a bit shorter in the water. Not sure I liked that. I will play with it for a few more work outs. Thanks again for all of your tips. The videos on Utube were helpful as well.
Mitch
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

With all due respect, you are wrong about the hand. Doc Counsilman, 30 + years ago at Indiana University sat on the bottom of the diving well with his scuba tank and 16 mm fast speed camera and filmed Mark Spitz and me with room and pool lights out. He put little strobe lights on our finger tips and filmed our hand movement as we swam across the pool. What he discovered is that the hand does not move forward or backward during the freestyle pull, but rather out, then in then out again. In other words, a sculling motion. The hand is not used as a paddle, as you suggest, but rather creates lift (Bernoulli's principal) to power us forward in the water. therefore, the drag (in the forward direction) is not created by the hand and little by the forearm, but rather the top of the arm, which is moving forward at a speed slightly less than the body.

Cousilman? Bernoulli principle? Lift being the dominant force of swimming propulsion?

The seventies just called and want their swimming theories back.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [aggiesdm] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Aggiesdm,

I will pass on your words to Jr. I know he has proudly inspired many type 1 and 2 diabetics world wide who live a daily battle for glucose control. Good luck in your first IM!

Regards,

Gary Sr.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [tim_sleepless] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:

With all due respect, you are wrong about the hand. Doc Counsilman, 30 + years ago at Indiana University sat on the bottom of the diving well with his scuba tank and 16 mm fast speed camera and filmed Mark Spitz and me with room and pool lights out. He put little strobe lights on our finger tips and filmed our hand movement as we swam across the pool. What he discovered is that the hand does not move forward or backward during the freestyle pull, but rather out, then in then out again. In other words, a sculling motion. The hand is not used as a paddle, as you suggest, but rather creates lift (Bernoulli's principal) to power us forward in the water. therefore, the drag (in the forward direction) is not created by the hand and little by the forearm, but rather the top of the arm, which is moving forward at a speed slightly less than the body.

Cousilman? Bernoulli principle? Lift being the dominant force of swimming propulsion?

The seventies just called and want their swimming theories back.

Let me be more direct: the idea that lift via Bernoulli's principle is a major component of propulsion has long been refuted. A casual observation of the best freestyle swimmers in the world (today) would show how straight their hands/arms move from front to back.

I was about to say I'm surprised to hear this, but, well, I'm not.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [JDAD] [ In reply to ]
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You should be ashamed of yourself for promoting that liquid O2/ATP crap. Talk to us about your 50 years of swimming knowledge, about form, about technique, but don't try to push that garbage on here. You also sell Noni Juice, will that increase my run split? Sad.

(from a MD/Phd in biochemistry who knows a little about anerobic/aerobic metabolism)


AND, from non_sequitur later on,



I'm pretty sure we are actually all now dumber for having read any of this. This just doesn't pass my smell test.

Yeah, WTF? I find it hard to believe that a doctor is making these claims. This crap flies in the face of . . . science. Placebo effect, sure. But oral oxygen and ATP?

I just re-read the original post. About half of it is about oxygen and ATP, and it ends with a sales pitch. I think critical readers are rightly finding fault with the science.

I've also done exercise with a pulse oximeter. I didn't desat. At all.

The one thing I can believe is the 100,000 patients. I went to see one and the tech did most of the work figuring out my refractive error. The MD spend about 5 minutes in the room. His appointment list outside the door (I was a nosy med student) had people at 5-10 minutes intervals.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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Unfortunately, I'm thoroughly confused by this statement:

"What he discovered is that the hand does not move forward or backward during the freestyle pull, but rather out, then in then out again. In other words, a sculling motion. The hand is not used as a paddle, as you suggest, but rather creates lift (Bernoulli's principal) to power us forward in the water."

I'm kind of familiar w/ Berni's principle, but what I envision w/ the hand being in the SAME position would be analogous to your hand being in the same position after pulling on a hold rock climbing. My body moves relative to my hand and the rock/pool. I'm not able to scale a wall via Berni's principle.

So it is the side to side motion of my hand that creates a pressure differential and my body moves forward, being pushed by the area of relatively high pressure around/behind me? The "lift" created is in the horizontal plane (in the direction we want to move through the water)? So, I should not be pulling back in a fairly straight line w/ my hand similar to a paddle?

Thanks in advance for the advice.




*********************************************

Vegetarian: An old Aboriginal American word for "Bad Hunter."
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Runski] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

. I'm not able to scale a wall via Berni's principle.




You're clearly not using liquid oxygen.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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When I am breathing hard running fast, it is 90+ breaths per minute, corresponding to right foot strikes (don't know why, perhaps I push off harder with the right side so better synchronzation like breathing out while bench pressing....). This is typically my breathing rate for the final 5K of any race or any distance, or for mile or lower repeats. In a tri, I breath every second out of the gate and every third once things settle down. Assuming 88 strokes per 100m at 90 second per 100m, that is still only 45 breaths breathing every second stroke for 90 seconds or 30 for 1 minute. While running hard I am breathing 3x the rate of swimming.
Are you really sure about these numbers, too? I just ran on the treadmill at lunch, and counted my actual breaths three times for a minute each time. Going about 7min/mile (which is a little more than moderate for me now), I had 44-46 breaths/minute. So for your 90 seconds, I take about 66 breaths running, and about 50 swimming. That's a ratio of about 4/3, not 3/1. Something's really bizarre here. Maybe it's just me.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Runski] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Runski,

For good swimmers there is very little forward or backward motion of the hand in the water, mostly side to side, but that is not what you perceive. Water is not a rock or a lane line so that is why there is motion from side to side, generating lift and propulsion.
The dilemma is that you cannot think of pulling the water from side to side. It doesn't work. You have to try to 'hold' the water which means that you feel as if you are pulling straight back (with elbows high) with the hand. However the body is really moving past the hand, not vice versa. You should also particularly avoid letting your hand approach the midline under your body as that puts the upper arm in a position of higher drag. In other words, stay wider with the pull.
Hope this helps.

Gary Sr.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

I too was a skeptic, as were our World Team swimmers in 2000, until they went to Flagstaff for an altitude training session. By the middle of the first workout, they were putting the liquid O2 under their tongues after every set. It works.

I've swam at NAU, coming from sea level, and I could hardly flip after the first turn due to O2 debt. If your product will address that problem for me then I will definelty give it a try as I frequently find myself out of breath when at altitude, doing hills, or track repeats.

And right on, bring back the '70s. Peace ;)
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Just Old] [ In reply to ]
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I think if people are doing anything more than bilateral breathing in practice they are doing too much. I also don't understand the focus on breathing here, but whatever. In practice I try to not breathe. In competition I have a set breath pattern for the pool and a set breath pattern for doing open water or distance swimming (every other stroke, same side, and I switch sides if I feel lopsided or my neck hurts.) But all of this is personal and dependent on lung capacity and physiologic necessity.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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Im still struggling with the "hand does not move back" bit

Ok lets simplify this:
-lets assume you are either using a pullbuoy, or swimming with a wetsuit on, either way not kicking much (for long distance triathlon, a fair assumption). Therefore all of your propulsion is coming from your arms
-lets furhter assume that we are trying to pull straight back- this is what my coach (very high end national swimmer pre-triathlon) has taught me, so i will go with it. It also seems to be what most swimmers i see in underater videos do

Then, if your hands arent moving back, how can you possible generate any thrust?
-the only way to generate thurst is to "shove water backwards"
-if your hand isnt moving backwards relative to the stationary water, what is? How are you thrusting water backwards?
-basic physics suggest that all of you CANNOT be moving forward or static relative ot hte water- SOME part of you must be moving backwards to generate any thrust.
-think of a rowing shell. The blades slip backwards slightly relative to the water. This is the affect i am thinking about here
-what is that stuff i feel sliding through my fingers if i open my hand when pulling? its water! given that the water is clearly going from palm side to back of hand side, doesnt that guarantee my hand must be moving towards palmside (ie towards back of pool) when i pull?
-think of another example- a paddlewheel steamer. the only way it goes forward is for the paddle parts to go BACKWARDS relative to the water. Or think of a tank wearing a lifejacket (big lifejacket). Its treads certainly have to go backwards to make the tank go forwards...
-last example- think about jet exhaust- in order to generate thrust, the jet exhaust has to be shot out backwards faster than the jet is travelling forwards- ie the exhaust has to be travelling net backwards vs its original speed
-In ALL these examples- to go forward, you have to shove the thing you are pushing against backwards. Why would swimmers be any different? If your bernoulli affect were valid, then you would have something. But my pull is straight forward/back. Bernoulli would be what you get when you do hand sculling- its not very fast as we all know.

btw, i dont disagree with your high elbow bit, i just disagree with your logic on how you get to it.

also- im going to the pool tonight- i will specifically figure out a way to test this.


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Proud member of the Guru Cartel, EH!
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [nfreeman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Im still struggling with the "hand does not move back" bit

Whenever I've heard 'hand does not move back' it's been tied to the concept that you're doing freestyle right when the hand enters the water, you 'anchor' it in place, pull your body forward based on that anchor, and then the hand exits the water at the same point it enters.

The easiest way to watch for this is to do a little bit of film of a swimmer next to lane lines that have short sections of alternating color floats- really lets you see what the hands are doing in relation to a fixed point that's easy to identify.

And then watch the film in slo-mo.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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Ok now i have video to back up my hand comments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7cES6C6Oww

this is phelps doing the freestyle. Look at second 25 to second 30- shot from above
you will notice 2 things:
1) His hand is moving almost straight back, almost no back and forth "bernoulli" bits at all
b) His hand is moving backwards relative to the pool a HUGE amount- by about 2 feet per stroke by my eye- look at second 26. Look also at 1:23

btw, this video is incredible- ive now watched it like 30 times. He swims more than 2x faster than i do, and he makes it look like he is working half as hard. Out of curiousity- i wonder what the "wattage equivalent" of his speed would be.


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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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I agree that may be a good drill, or thing to visualize- but it isnt what actually happens.

Think about a kayak (ive done a fair amount of kayak racing and been coached in it). The coaches say "it should feel like you are hooking the kayak paddle on a peg on a board and pulling boat past the peg" but it isnt what actually happens- if you actually look at the blade in the water it is sliding backwards- it HAS to for reasons of basic physics.

Same with your hand- some part of you has to be moving backwards to get the water to go backwards which in turns gets you going forwards. There may be an exception very early in the stroke when your hand is stationary as you "glide" btu that isnt hte the thrust part of the stroke.

Exceptions i can think of:
-rotary motion (bernoulli, boat propellers)
-squirting type action (bellows shooting out jet of water, squid, etc)
neither apply to humans swimming though


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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [gary hall sr.] [ In reply to ]
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Mr Hall,

You talk about Bernoulli's principal and lift, not pull in free style. Have you had a chance to read Dr. Romanov's description of swim technique in his Pose Method of Triathlon book?

Coming from a year round swimming background, I found his ideas to be spot on and very helpful in the pool. What also was interesting was his dissection of a number of swim theories as he uses physics to prove them wrong, and this includes the theory of pulling one self through the water vs. lifting the body.

http://store.posetech.com/...NIQUES_p/pmb-tri.htm

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [nfreeman] [ In reply to ]
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Cool video - I got a new favorite.
But he IS doing the sideways sculling, or "s" pattern with his hands. Look again at :56 to :58.
Also, in the later part when the camera is at the side, you can see it.

It looks straight in the beginning of the video, but I think that is due to the camera angle: his body is over the hand when he starts the little "s" move.
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [nfreeman] [ In reply to ]
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Back to my rock climbing example, in an ideal world (think frictionless bearing) you'd be able to "grip" the water, like rock, and the force applied from your hand arm would be fully applied to pull you through the water. In my mind, my hand moving through the water is bad, it's less than 100% force transfer to pull me through the water, similar to spinning your tires.

I don't want to shove water backwards, I want it to stay where it is, catch it w/ my hand and pull myself past it. According to Dr. Hall, both of our thinking is incorrect.

*********************************************

Vegetarian: An old Aboriginal American word for "Bad Hunter."
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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Runski] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, in your ideal world, that is what you would do. Your ideal world is one where you have 100% friction on the water with your hands as you push, and 0% friction on your body as drag. Also, in your ideal world we would only have to take one stroke at beginning of race and coast the rest of the way. Given my swimming, i would love your world.

Sadly we dont live in that world- while you would like to grab a rock and pull back on, you cant- (unless you are on the last part of the course at the cancun 70.3). Since you cant, the very act of generating force backwards with your hand makes it move backwards (back to my rowing example).

I agree its not efficient- this is why you are faster with paddles on your hands (less slip).

Im not sayding hand slip is a GOAL, i am however saying the laws of physics require it.

Coming back to Dr. Hall- its my understanding that the bernoulli theory of swim propulsion has been left in the 70s. If you think about how mcuh it sucks to try to hand scull vs paddle a canoe, you will see why.


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Re: Struggling with the swim? Here are some good tips [Runski] [ In reply to ]
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a pretty detailed academic treatment is here:

http://www.sportsci.org/...biomech/skeptic.html


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