Dear dcsxtri10,

Let me work on finding some studies on the liquid Oxygen. It has been awhile since i last checked, but i am sure there are some. ATP which is readily absorbed orally has the obvious advantage of maximizing available ATP (without using Creatine...CreatinePhosphate is also like available ATP). However, best case that will last about 30 seconds before you move on to anaerobic respiration. So what is the value in an endurance event?
ATP was shown in one animal study (i will have to find it) to increase peripheral blood flow. I suspect that ATP is also allowing Oxygen to reach the muscle more easily, though this is not proven. If you take too much ATP it will cause tingling in the hands and feet from vasodilation (like Niacin). That may be the benefit to endurance sports.
I will report back with the studies I find. Thanks for asking.

Regards,

Gary Sr.

If you've got any science to back you up, share it.

"Concentrated activated stabilized oxygen" is gibberish.

There is no reason to believe that the products actually deliver oxygen to the body. It is possible to use an electric current to add a tiny amount of oxygen to water, but to access it, a human would need gills.

Even if it were possible, taking oxygen through a liquid, pill, or food would not significantly raise the body's blood level of oxygen.

Oxygen enters the bloodstream through the lungs. The body adapts to what it needs by changing its breathing rate.

Partial pressure of CO2 primarily determines when we take another breath, not lack of oxygen. The body will extract what oxygen it needs from the air and deliver what is needed to the cells. Blood returning to the lungs contains surplus oxygen. Swimmers, can learn bilateral breathing, and breathe whenever their partial pressure of carbon dioxide indicates.

One hypothesis is that the World Team swimmers in 2000 would have done much better had they not been poisoned after every set. Without science, you're merely selling "gibberish water" and implying the equivalent of "because Phelps once bonged out, we should too".

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C
Purveyor of Crank!

Note to self:

When making outlandish claims about supplements, liquid oxygen and science in general... bring the "science" info (ie; studies) to the table early if you plan on posting on ST.

I just hate it when facts get in the way of an otherwise good discussion ;-)

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!

Thunderbolt and Liquid oxygen... The best thing since Power Cranks!

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!

I suspect it will be a long time before we hear back on studies that would reflect a physicians level of knowledge to support your claims.....
Dave

Dear Crank,

I will work on finding some studies for you. Have you ever heard the term Oxygen debt? Why do you think you hang on the wall after a hard set with no exertion going on, breathing as if it is the last available oxygen on earth and you had better get it before your training partner does? If the body could extract all of the oxygen it needed all the time, your labored breathing would cease when your exercise does.
Your theory may be right for sitting at your computer, but not while swimming. Getting enough oxygen to the cells, involving the myriad of systems and steps along the way, is perhaps the most significant rate-limiting component of endurance sports. Perhaps that is why people with low VO2 maxs don't fare too well in endurance sports.

Regards,

Gary Sr.

Dear PennState,

Good point. I did not come prepared. Had no idea I was opening Pandora's box. I will get back.

Gary Sr.

This is some of the best "crap" I have ever read on ST. Keep it coming. I have to watch the kids tonight. So, the TV will be occupied by Elmo. If this keeps going ST will entertain long into the night.

Liquid Oxygen. That's a good one.

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Twitter @achtervolger

Dear snake oil pusher,

I've always found ATP applied topically to be far superior.

It might be even better if you could swim in Phelps' bong water.

Hi
(humble, gulp)
I have to point out the obvious to a group that may not have a grasp on just who is in our midst......................
Gary Hall Senior was the Michael Phelps (only smarter........he is a VERY noted eye surgeon) of the late 60's and early 70's

This gentleman is THE MAN........please conduct with respect, and his son is a very notable man on many levels (hi Gary JR!)

Thomas Price
Humble in the presence of the MAN

So, can I swallow sunshine and get a tan?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Oh, how does the liquid Oxygen work on stains?

Couldn't resist that one either. (bad Jose Wales reference)

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Twitter @achtervolger

Dear Donut Gestapo,

Just try it....even without the studies, then get back to me.

Regards,

Gary Sr.

I think many of us are quite aware ;-)
Dave

I think he's getting all the respect due to someone pushing supplements with no proof of their effectiveness

And Frank day is an original Ironman and physician (not a scientist) as well. That still doesn't stop the "burn the witch" mentallity on ST.

I'm not judging Dr. Day's or Dr. Hall's promotional practices. I'm just saying...

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"Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn." - Charles De Mar

Placebo effect?

Back in the day, all the members of my team used to eat Jell-O powder to improve our swimming performance. I swam some of my best times on that stuff. So, n=1 that Jell-O really works. Does anyone want to by some special Jell-O?

Note that it is not tainted with ST Cool-aid.

Athletes will try anything. Especially if their coach tells them to.

I'm just not buying liquid oxygen. My chemistry is a little rusty. And, my A&P is even rustier. But, come on. Write a book to make money. Liquid oxygen is taken orally and that gets oxygen into your blood stream. That is a heck of a statement.

No disrespect to you or your swimming accomplishments. They are what they are. Your product seems impossible.

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Twitter @achtervolger

Wait this makes basically zero sense.

A few basic facts about the chemistry of breathing etc:
-your urge to breath is generally limited by your need to blow of CO2, not your need for 02- unless you are in some very weird situations, your CO2 sensors cause you to breath long before you start to get lower O2 sat
-your muscles dont really go into oxygen debt- they switch from aerobic to anaerobic metabolism. The switch to anaerobic metabolism is because you cant deliver enough oxygen via your bloodstream to the muslces, not because you cant breath fast enough. The issue is oxygen delivery not oxygen absorption. IE this is why you see cyclists blood doping NOT getting 2nd sets of lungs implanted.
-key point here is that the limiting factor isnt 02 absorption, its 02 delivery. Delivering more 02 wouldnt get you anywhere if you deliver it at the lungs- its delivering it to the muslces thats the hard part. key test- what color is somone with low oxygen saturation? Blue. What color are people when htey are racing? Red or pink- they clearly are NOT having issues with 02 saturation

other stuff that tmakes no sense:
-liquid oxygen is insanely cold. Regardless of how much salt you put in it, it is still gong to be a variant on insanely cold. It also evaporates in seconds, regardless of what else you put in it. The equivalent would be someone saying "yes, on mars, the temperature is 300 degrees C, but because it has salt in it, this "liquid water" wont boil off. This is patently absurd- anyone with a thermometer and a stove can demonstrate that the boiling point of gatorade and water are within a few degrees of eachother.
-EVEN if you could drink liquid oxygen, AND not freeze your mouth off, it wouldnt do anything. Lets say it then evaporated in your stomach- all that would happen is you would burp it out again. Or explode. Your lungs are built for gas exchange. Your stomach and gut are built for liquid exchange nad acid management. You can breath via your stomach about as effectively as you can drink through your lungs- ie you cant.
-And again, even if you could, it wouldnt help- see above

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Proud member of the Guru Cartel, EH!

Im actually going to differ from others on slowtwitch and say this kind of hooey ISNT welcome here
-you have no posts that arent selling your products
-your supplements are genuinely laughable to anyone with a high school knowledge of chemistry

Also:
-you quote your own medical background to give yourself credibility, but you fail to mention the following 2 things:

a) you are an opthamalogist, which is hardly an area related to exercise physiology
b) you have been permanently banned from performing surgery for misconduct "Arizona ophthalmologist Dr. Gary Hall has been permanently banned from performing or assisting in any surgery, and has been placed on a five-year probation covering the remainder of his medical practice."
[/u]

for those interested, here is the link:
http://www.bizjournals.com/...5/04/11/daily60.html

keep this in mind before getting eye surgery from him or buying his medicines...

Im not the kind in general to do this- but if you are going to bring your medical credentials INTo the discussion, then its fair to point out the issues with said credentials.

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Proud member of the Guru Cartel, EH!

Yes, he is. And his son is no slouch either. I don't think anyone is disputing their swimming accomplishments

But, he is using the forum to push a very questionable product backed up with no evidence, and a lot of impressive sounding polysyllabic words and pseudoscience.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

That doesn't reflect my points, nor address them. It doesn't even show an understanding of oxygen debt.
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.

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C
Purveyor of Crank!

ouch

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Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)

Here's your rat study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10871303

and a rabbit one

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10871303


Here's a study showing no impact of oral ATP supplementation at much higher doses (10-15x) than in Thunderbolt on 30sec performance, although some subjects got better at weights. Which is nice

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...=f1000,f1000m,isrctn



Glad to be of help.

I really am enjoying this. Even if people type such big words.

Seriously. This guy picked the wrong forum for this. We should be suggesting Beginner Triathlete or somewhere where his stuff might go over better. We should be helping rather than arguing.

Wait. This is ST. Forget helping.

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Twitter @achtervolger

They're pretty much laughing over on BT as well, except for the swimming newbies who are just confused.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |