I don't know about you, but I will learn more from an arrogant horse's arse who actually knows what he is talking about than from the nicest guy who not only doesn't know what he is talking about, but doesn't know that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Paulo, I think you got this wrong.

Consider that the only part of the swimmer's anatomy not moving forward through the water will be the hand. Since the hand is moving backwards relative to the body and the shoulder isn't. The shoulder is moving forward through the water, while the hand isn't. Therefore all parts of the arm that are moving forward relative to the hand are creating drag.
So immediately after the catch...no actually during the catch too, the upper arm is creating drag.

I can't believe this has dropped to page 6 on the topics. I have been following this since the first post so I guess it's safe to jump in now. Just some comments.

First I was an OK swimmer in high school (think 1971) and Gary Hall Sr.'s swimming was infamous. I know nothing of him since. But I think it's great he decided to contributed and stay in the discussion.

I know there are a lot of smart knowleadgeble people on this forum and some that only think they are. The rest of us are just MOP. I enjoyed the discussion, although it was rude at times (see lawyer reference below).

I know there alot of very good swimmers on this forum and I suspect they are the 10% of the field that beat me on the swim leg. Others just talk a good game.

The last time I check the basics of mechanics and fluids go back to at least the Greeks over 2000 years ago. Modern day mechanics, and for the most part, fluid dynamics has not changed for a couple of hundred years. My training in these areas is 25 years old. However, it is only the application of the principles that has been the subject of discussion/argument. As far as arguing, I am better equipped than most having been a trial lawyer for years in an earlier life. However, even then I tried to save it for when people were paying me to do it.

I have no formal training in physiology. But I know that you can not apply abstract principles of physics and fluid dynamics to the human body moving in water and expect to get accurate results without a Cray computer.

Any claims regarding the benefit of nutritional supplements based on anecdotal evidence without a verifiable double blind scientific study. is BUNK. It could potentially have some benefit, but before that it is just a guess. I'd rather put my money into a better set of racing wheels. On top of that I am certain that spending more time on basic stroke technique over and over again produces better results.

Finally, there are people on this forum who are either very fast typists, or aren't spending as much training as they should. There were so many good comments in and around the posts that I would go back to the pool to see if they made sense. By then the thread had moved onto a new subject. However one that a sustained life was breathing. I have a simple answer. Breathe as much as you need to to go as fast as you need to, and do it in the most efficient manner causing the least drag. I know that is not helpful to those new to swimming, but neither do i think is the PhD level of debate that went on (although I enjoyed it immensely).

Oh and yea, thanks Gary for getting it started. Can I go back to my life now?

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http://www.bobswims.com/

"If you didn't swallow water in your last open water race, you weren't racing"

Dear E=H20 and all other readers of this thread,

I have decided to leave you all with one last post and hopefully some food for thought. Alas, I too must go back to real life.
First of all, I have written to try to help you, first and foremost. Yes, we do have a business of teaching swimming and yes, people pay me a lot of money to share with them what i have shared with you at no cost. And yes, we do sell products we believe will help you perform better. With or without science, we believe in their efficacy based on over 50 Olympic swimmers experience in using them for over 8 years (19 Olympic medals won by TRC swimmers).
For those of you who don't know who i am, i am a swimmer of over 50 years experience, including 3 Olympics (lightyears ago) a triathlete of 10 years experience (in my 30's and early 40's) and a teacher, having spent the past two years teaching over 200 swimmers at The Race Club in the Florida Keys how to swim faster. Although I am a physician, i spent two years at Indiana University studying honors Physics which included two semesters of fluid mechanics before going pre-med.
Nearly all of what I have shared with you is a result of being a teacher. As a teacher, one is really forced to think about the things one teaches. Unlike many teachers who teach the way they were taught, i have had the fortune of observing both above and below water some of the most talented and fastest swimmers in the world, including my own son. I have observed many great improvements in technique over the years and have tried to incorporate most of them myself. In fact, when I look back at my strokes in films of the 68 and 72 Games, it is comical. I wish I knew then what i know now. And although I cannot claim everything I have told you is 100% accurate, I can claim that it has come with a lot of thought. And I have NEVER been so stubborn as to not listen or try something new. Even Libby Trickett, who holds the world record in the women's 100 freestyle, just converted to a straight arm recovery; a substantial technique change. One should be neither too old or too good to learn new tricks.

So I will leave you with a summary of what I would do as a triathlete to improve my swim:

First, regarding the breathing pattern i recommend. Every technique change comes with a price. Breathing slows the stroke rate and likely increases drag by forcing our arm more under our body, both bad. Yet oxygen is our life line. Unless you are training 12,000 to 18,000 meters per day, likely you are not as aerobically fit for swimming as the world class swimmers you are emulating. So don't necessarily copy them. I train 2,500 M three times per week and have found the 2:3 breathing cycle really helps me sustain my speed better on longer swims. It is also easier to use in an open water swim than in a pool. It also puts your breathing pattern more on par with your run or bike. Just try it.

With regard to fundamental #1, Thick as a Brick, do anything and everything you can to make yourself less like a brick. This includes wearing a wetsuit or Blue 70 or whatever technology you believe in, shaving your arms and legs, wearing a swim cap and in your swimming technique, it means dropping your head down and elevating your elbows underwater. Dropping the head helps align your body and reduced surface (wave) drag from your head banging against the water. Elevating the elbow does NOT increase the surface area of your arm underwater, nor does it put you in a stronger position. In fact, it is likely less powerful in that rather awkward position. But it DOES reduce the drag coefficient significantly. You don't need a flume or a wind tunnel or some double-blind peer reviewed study to prove this. Just do the demonstration kick drill with fins I described earlier. That should convince you.

With regard to Fundamental #2, Swim with your Body, some of you will have more shoulder flexibility than others which may make this more or less difficult. Of the three reasons why i explained that swimming with your body increases your speed, likely the most important one is the counter-rotation it creates when you are accelerating your bent-elbowed arm and hand through the pull. In other words, it gives one more to "pull" against than a flat, stationary object in a liquid medium. Practice with the drill I outline on our website to get more comfortable with this technique. Remember, it requires work to swim with your body.

With regard to fundamental #3, Swimming on the Freeway, the law of inertia applies to any speed you are swimming. The objective is to sustain your speed at whatever it is, rather than speeding up and slowing down repeatedly. there are only two ways i know of to achieve this. One is to have a pair of Mercury motors for legs, such as Thorpe or Phelps, that drive you through the water with a sustained 6 beat kick. Or Two, turn your stroke rate faster. Learn to do this with the dolphin drill. Remember, the power position is in the front of your stroke (over your head) not at the end. The Popov study is a good example of flawed science. Looking at the figure, one could easily draw a conclusion that it is the end of the stroke that is most powerful. Again, you don't need a flume to show that doesn't make sense. This morning I pulled 50 m with no kick, one arm only, with the other arm above my head in the streamlined position. First time, I pulled with my right arm only from waist to the end of the pull and back to the waist again, simulating the end of the stroke. My time was 1:20 and my triceps (the only real muscle working at this point) was aching. I then did the same with both arms in front, but the right arm pulling from the outstretched position to below my elbow and back out again, simulating the front of the stroke. My time was 60 seconds.
Teaching one to push out the back of the stroke, which many coaches do, not only reduces time spent in the more powerful position, it causes a slower turnover and creates a 'stop and go' inefficient technique. Perhaps one of best examples of a front end swimmer is Eamonn Sullivan (also a straight-arm recovery), world record holder in the 50 and 100 m freestyle. In fact, he releases so early, I call it (in keeping with the fishing technique common to the Keys) the "catch and release" stroke.

Also, please remember in all of this that there is not one technique that will work for all swimmers. One has to use the technique that is best suited for the distance (see our DVD entitled The Three Styles of Freestyle), body type, kick strength, VO2 Max, etc etc. Case in point is the finals of the men's 1500 M Freestyle in Beijing where the first four swimmers (only seconds apart) had very different techniques (first two leg/hip driven, slower stroke rate, second two more shoulder/arm driven with much higher stroke rate). Regardless, the three fundamentals above apply to ALL swims and all distances, so please don't forget that.

Finally, please do not listen to the self-appointed experts on this forum, regardless of what credentials they might have. They have the right to question, even if they do so rudely, as I do, and that is good. Be open to suggestions. Science is wonderful. I continue to do research even today in the biomechanics of the cornea at the Bascom Palmer Eye Institute at the University of Miami. I have written several papers. I also know that most studies are flawed in one way or another and can easily lead us to wrongful conclusions (like the Popov study). For example, one of the best studies on drag for swimming was published in 2004 in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, vol. 36, no.6, pp 1029-1035, entitled Effect of Swim Suit Design on passive Drag by Mollendorf et al. In the study they separated the relative contributions of drag (pressure, surface and friction) using 5 different suit styles and technologies. It was a good study and helps our understanding, but all of the swimmers were towed on a tow rope in the most streamlined position possible. The problem is that once we start swimming (using arms and legs) we introduce a whole new set of drag components into the equation (mostly our arms) which increases the relative contribution of pressure drag greatly. The point is than one can come to the wrong conclusion about drag from a very good study....just flawed from real life.
Anyway, I hope to see you in the Keys someday. There is plenty of Open Water here and it is user friendly. I am not sure if a Margarita qualifies as a nutritional supplement, but we have plenty of those too!

Yours in Swimming,

Gary Sr.

Thanks for the summary. I copied it into a document for future reference. Again I found much of it helpful. I think your statement "that there is not one technique that will work for all swimmers" summarizes my thoughts on why presenting an abstract technical analysis of swimming techniques to a audience can lead to an endless disagreement. However, I do agree that success does not lie.


I am on board if you ever want to do a study on this. It doesn't need to be a double blind.

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http://www.bobswims.com/

"If you didn't swallow water in your last open water race, you weren't racing"

Finally, one thing to which we can all agree. Or some of us, at least.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

The forearm, yes. Not the entire arm: a portion of it is moving forward in relation to the water... otherwise, we'd move backward (conditions at the limit: the arm is indeed attached to the rest of the body). I am nitpicking but a portion of the arm (maybe a third of the upperarm?) contributes to the overall body drag.

This said, I love your posts. :-) And, while I am at it: Ken Lehner's posts are the best: I always wait for his imprimatur on a view/advice given on ST.

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First with the head, then with the heart. -- HG

Let me know if I missed anything you want my view on.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Excellent. I'll keep this in mind. I am considering running twice a day (once, maybe twice a week) starting in a few weeks: if am still confused after researching the subject, I'll give you a ST nudge. :-)

Alex

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First with the head, then with the heart. -- HG