Good point....like an airplane / boat, on the x axis there is just thrust and drag. On the Y axis you have gravity and lift. Lift along the Y axis should reduce drag on the x axis, not increase thrust on the x axis....but then again, the shape of the vessel in the viscous medium changes for a swimmer but does not change for an airplane of boat. Gary, is there something that happens in the front end of the stroke that increases the "thrust" or does it just put the swimmer higher in the water to reduce drag (at the moment of farthest reach)?

How can I say this without hurting your feelings... You are wrong.

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How can I say this without hurting your feelings... You are wrong.

How do threads like this get to 11 pages, 254 posts and counting, and 14,000+ views - and I have just added a view. Wow!! Who has the time or the energy to read through all this. Is their a Readers Digest or Coles Notes version??

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I'm adding views just to see what Paulo says :D

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I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

Gary Sr.

Maybe I don't know anything about what you guys are talking about. The only thing I can do is go to the pool and test the concepts to see if works or not, but probably this is going to be just a science project.
But there is one single thing that I like ... you totally ignore the people with no skills or acknowledge to contribute ... congratulations on you behavior...

Luiz

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Luiz Eng

I don't understand the arrogance of some posters who are so very negative regarding what Gary Hall is saying. Questions are one thing. Attempting to argue or personal attacks are another. I enjoy hearing what he has to say. It is certainly thought provoking.

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I agree. Others have attacked non-stop, but I have to say that he walked the walk. The guy has the times to back up what he says. There are a few here that are all talk, and their brand of voodoo science, but he made it happen. His times speak for themselves. If his tips don't work, then it wasn't right for that individual, but to dismiss his points in a general sense is to be very arrogant, and ignorant. I'm sure those same posters say Lance doesn't have a clue and Chrissie's riding the wrong bike, while they sit in their pompous armchair and tell how good they were/are.

Thanks very much for the reply Gary, much appreciated.

If I hear you correctly I think it's important for readers to note that you're recommending 2/3 breathing largely as a racing technique and that its still advisable for them to do most of their training with "normal" breathing patterns.

Like rain on a wedding day, dontcha think?

Indeed, his times speak for themselves. What they do not do is speak for his knowledge. "Walking the walk" doesn't bestow competence. For a silly example, I'm the biological father of two girls. Although I can "walk the walk" with respect to fathering children, that does not make me an expert on fertility. Usain Bolt certainly "walks the walk," but would you rather learn how to sprint from him or his coach, who likely can't "walk the walk"?

Dr. Hall showed up on slowtwitch with an initial post that started this thread, and which contained claims that were shown to be false. Kieren Perkins did not utilise the breathe-every-stroke pattern in the specified race as claimed, nor have any other world-class swimmers been demonstrated to use this. The whole concept of "liquid oxygen" is rather silly. In subsequent posts, he has shown an incorrect understanding of the physics of swimming (some of us are still waiting for the explanation of how the outstretched arm can add significantly to forward propulsion). Have some of those who pointed out these errors done so in a harsh manner? Welcome to Slowtwitch and the internets.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Yes, Ken, disagreement is fine, but saying "welcome to the internet" does not justify those that simply attack and belittle. Add something positive. And I still feel that Hall has forgotten more than most here know from simply hanging around the "who's who" of coaches he did in his day. He learned from those that built the US into the swimming power second to none, and the string continues.
I would simply suggest that the arrogance of some posters here(some gone for a while, and now back) is so negative and objectionable, that Slowtwitch has seemed to lose it's luster, and has lost many bright minds that got tired of speaking to those that seemed to know it all while showing little in regards to results. The negativity has made it a much "dumber" place, and a sanctuary for either the bastards of the sport or those with enough to gain in hitting their heads against the wall. I've found other places to truly learn from.

And, congrats on your stellar USAT ranking!

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I didn't see any "attack and belittle." What I saw was a number of people (myself included) who asked Dr. Hall for any evidence backing his claims, some more politely than others, perhaps. Those actions are exactly the kind of positive additions that are sorely needed on slowtwitch. Those actions are what makes slowtwitch "smarter," not dumber. "Knowledge is good."

Personal results are irrelevant when it comes to discussing facts: the facts are either supported or they are not. My pointing out that Dr. Hall's belief that lift forces are more important than drag forces in swimming propulsion is outdated is supported by the facts: research has demonstrated it to be wrong. If Dr. Hall wishes to refute that research, he is free to present facts that support his position. He has failed to do so in many, if not all of his claims in this thread.

I have no dog in this fight. For some reason, I and others feel it's important to contribute to the wealth of knowledge found on slowtwitch by pointing out when so-called expert opinions fly in the face of well-known evidence. When those experts are called to defend their opinions, the arguments often include what you cite: negativity, "haters." What happens, contrary to what you claim, is that those who attempt to refute those opinions with actual facts finally give up. You want to lift to get faster on the bike? Knock yourself out; I'm not fighting that fight any more. You want to get faster in the water by pursuing the long-discarded notion of lift propulsion? Go to town; I won't wait for you in T1.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Dear jyeager,

The law of inertia applies at any speed and is compounded in the water. If you have a long glide, ie Phelps, Thorpe, Hackett etc, you had better have a great kick. Otherwise you are swimming in stop and go traffic. If you don't have the legs, you need to turn the arms faster (higher stroke rate) to sustain speed.

Gary Sr.

Dear Paul,

From the nearly the moment the hand enters the water a force is being applied to it that creates propulsion. One can argue whether that force is lift or drag, and it undoubtedly changes through the stroke cycle as the pitch of the hand changes, but it is irrelevant to the point that a propulsive force is being generated nearly the entire time the hand is underwater. Some on this forum don't seem to understand that.
From the Popov diagram, one can see a dramatic shift in body speed from the most streamlined position, when the arm is outstretched, to the middle of the pull when the arm is pointing down. The reduction of speed has to do almost exclusively with resistance and most of the the contibution to that is pressure drag. You are absolutely right about the body shape changing during the stroke. We go from less brick-like with our arm outstretched to very brick-like with the arm pointing down. That is why ALL great swimmers swim with such high elbows....it doesn't eliminate the pressure drag, just reduces it.
There are something like 110 new world records (at last count) that have been set since introducing new suit technology. Why. They made one significant change and one significant change only...reduce drag. Now if the small reduction in drag created by the new suit technology can do that, imagine what swimming with high elbows could do for you!

Gary Sr.

Seriously, is it soooo hard for people to realize that Paul's a last name????

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I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

Dear Moulli,

I am just suggesting that people try it. It works for me but i'm sure it is not for everyone. It has advantages and disadvantages. In practice, I use it on longer sets, but never on sprints or up to 200's.

Gary Sr.

Dear Devashish,

Sorry about getting the name backwards.

Gary Sr.

 
"a propulsive force is being generated nearly the entire time the hand is underwater."

This is not the case and there is plenty of scientific evidence to back it up. Where is your evidence? Also above you mentioned that both arms applied propulsive force AT THE SAME TIME during a stroke cycle. Where is your evidence for that?

"Some on this forum don't seem to understand that. "

Yes, because some on this Forum with PhD's in fluid dynamics have a real difficulty in understanding the physics of swimming.

"From the Popov diagram, one can see a dramatic shift in body speed from the most streamlined position, when the arm is outstretched, to the middle of the pull when the arm is pointing down."

That shift in body velocity is due to the acceleration of the pulling arm. It is due to the increase of propulsive force, not to the decrease of drag force like you are implying. Also, if you are talking about an outstretched arm, let me reiterate that there are NO propulsive force being generated by an outstretched arm. That is basic aero/hydrodynamics.

"The reduction of speed has to do almost exclusively with resistance and most of the the contibution to that is pressure drag."

The sentence doesn't say anything. In fact, the more streamlined the swimmers body is, the less contribution to total drag comes from pressure drag.

"That is why ALL great swimmers swim with such high elbows....it doesn't eliminate the pressure drag, just reduces it. "

The fact that all great swimmers swim with high elbows is because it maximizes the surface area for pulling backwards. The high-elbow serves to INCREASE the drag forces ON THE ARM, thus increasing propulsive force. You seem to think that when the arm is pulling it is increasing body drag, when that simply cannot happen since the arm is moving back in relation to the fluid that surrounds it. You can look this up too, there's plenty of research that supports it.

"There are something like 110 new world records (at last count) that have been set since introducing new suit technology. Why. They made one significant change and one significant change only...reduce drag."

The suits work by reducing friction drag. They don't impact a lot less on pressure drag. Because they compress the body of the athlete, his/her shape is altered and that changes pressure drag a little. But the significant reduction is in friction drag.

"Now if the small reduction in drag created by the new suit technology can do that, imagine what swimming with high elbows could do for you! "

Like I said above, swimming with high-elbows works by increasing the propulsive force, not by reducing drag. In fact, drag ON THE ARM is increased and that is the reason for the propulsive force to increase. I hope you're staying with me on this one, since many times above you mixed up several concepts.


As a final comment, I would like to add that I don't understand why a reputed coach should get tangled in justifying himself with pseudo-science and flawed knowledge in physics, when that has very little to do with coaching. Physics in general and fluid dynamics in particular are clearly not your strong point, so why go there? Clearly teaching and coaching swimming are your strong points, so my suggestion is for you to stick to what you're good at.

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Paulo,

How is 1/2 an arm able to create more surface area (for force) than a fully extended arm?

Other than that.. well said. But swimming still isn't about force.. it is about leverage. Well, both, but more about leverage for velocity maint.

d

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I believe the OP was referencing the arm fully extended to the front (where it clearly does not contribute to forward propulsion, unless for some reason there is some sculling going on).

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Paulo,

Who on the forum has a PhD in Fluid Dynamics? Just curious, actually ...

Trying to find a grain of information in a sea of urination.

Dan

i believe paulo has a PhD in fluid dynamics

love it!!!

seamus

Paulo is an arrogant horses arse. He continues to demonstrate that here.

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2 half arms... of which more is perpendicular to the direction of travel for longer compared to a constantly straight arm which is only perpendicular to the direction of travel momentarily.