Well hopefully pointing out the factual and logical flaws will help people separate the nuggets from the nonsense.

With great swimmers, the leading hand is about at the shoulder underwater when the other hand enters. So from the shoulder to the exit point around the waist, both hands are creating force, whether lift or drag, at the same time. To suggest that only one arm is creating propulsive force at a time would imply that the recovery hand spends as much time in the air as the pulling hand does underwater, which is nonsense.

Gary

My only comment regarding this is that while reasonable people may disagree, the tendency on the internet is for the discussion to degrade to a much less civil level that would ever occur in a social or professional setting. While the claim was made that those countering Dr. Halls claims were not trying to be "rude" they were in fact, being quite rude. The facts of the discussion will show what they will, but I commend Dr. Hall for his tolerance with the lack of courtesy and professionalism shown by many on here.

Thanks for hanging around for the rest of us. I'm not necessarily buying everything you are saying (e.g supplements), but some of it I find worth listening too.

But there's a big time gap beween entry and the application of force... the lead arm is under the water reaching as the rear arm finishes.. then it catches and applies force.

Look at your own video.

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

I'd be interested in you supplying a video where there is simultaneous application of force from both arms, I certainly couldn't find one. It's a rariety at best.



http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

I think what he is referring to, is the often touted lift phase of the entering hand. There is a downward force applied immediately as the hand reaches down and out, and many believe that this lift force propels you foreward.. I come from the old Chico state/Ernie Maglisco school of thought, and that was what we were taught. Not sure of the current data, or theories, but makes sense to me...

Well, Maglisco has definitely changed his tune since then.

I checked video of Thorpe, Hackett, Popov and Foster: not a single stroke was taken while the other hand was pulling. In fact, they all showed a remarkable ability to recover while the lead arm was forward.

An interesting video of Foster: http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related. Check around 1:40 or so, and look at his head angle. He's looking forward quite a bit.

Here's Hackett looking forward, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6qIhkuzTx0

Here's Thorpe from dead on, in which you can see his chin and the water line appears to be at his eyebrows: http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

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Sorry no. But the inlaws story is cool

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"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life".
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Ken (Just Old), not all of us are complete morons and are certainly capable of gleaning the information that is likely to be useful. Sorry, but I and many others don't need anonymous posters like Tim Sleepless beating up on Gary Hall Sr to make some semblance of analysis on what Gary posts that might be useful. Heck, even a triathlon legend like Mark Montgomery learnt something new and tried it out and the pool and felt there were some benefits after 40 years of swimming!!!

Look, I understand that some of the talk about supplements etc is really a point of contention so fine a few posts telling him to shut up on supplements and post on swimming would likely suffice.

Let's hear his ideas on swim technique without making him feel so unwelcome that the man stops posting. Gary Hall Sr is a swimming legend.

He might be right on some things and wrong on other things, but I am sure there are 1000's of lurkers, who are really appreciating his presence here. Of course, Gary hall Sr does not get to see what they are thinking, cause they are not posting. He gets to see Tim Sleepless trying to feel smart about beating up on Gary Hall Sr. In the process if he becomes fed up and leaves, many who frequent Slowtwitch lose.

Yes, sure, call BS where it is needed, but let's hear the guy out on swim technique, take several weeks or months to try out his ideas and give him feedback and hopefully the man is around to answer our questions (FOR FREE) and not drivin away by those who feel like internet heros from behind the keyboard and fire at him from the relatively comfortable shield offered by the keyboard and screen (and would likely crumble in face to face presence).

Dev

Gary Sr et al...

Been reading this thread with great interest and want to keep this discussion up and point out a few things. First off, Gary Sr, thanks for posting. I had a chance to watch (and work with) Gary a little prior to sydney. (used to work at the resident team)... I loved how focused he and Anthony were on technique. Those guys only swam with 100% focus on proper tech (or what they felt was proper) and if it was not working for them, they did not hammer out "ineffective" meters for the sake of MORE IS MORE. Having said that, I think there is a distinct difference in the athletes we continually compare ourselves too. Vidoe clips of phelps and popov... these are the most talented swimmers on the planet. They have something that few others have and that, in truth, no one knows how to create. So to look at videos of them and think that we can swim like them... is not being fair to ourselves. I have personally seen Ian Thorpe at altitude do 100m kicks repeats on 115 holding under 110. That is without fins. I could not, even younger, do that with fins at sea level. So when we watch him move, or videos of him... his poor tech moments are easily covered by this talent and skill that he has.
Secondly, and what motivated me to post was the graph and the go between with you and Tim (whoever he is)... then Dev popping in. Thanks dev. Those high velocity moments that the graph illustrate occur after the propulsion has occured. The water, by its nature, has a built in delay factor. Meaning... or liking it to walking on ice. If you just put raw force into it... you will go no where. Your effort has to be slowed, and manipulated to achieve walking forward. The water is the same. THere is a delay. The peak velocity creating area --- or STRIDE AREA, as I call it, is between the nose and nipple line. Velocity (or max velocity as shown in the charts) then happens, bc of the delay, slightly after.
My tip here would be... any extra movement, reaching (infront), pushing past (behind) that area... is a complete waste of time and more critically energy.
But arms and their movement and their forces associated, are nothing in comparison to the critical importance of body position. If you read up on Ians attempted comeback a couple years ago... his entire "stroke" (arms and legs) changed bc of a new body structure and position he had worked on.
Lastly, breathing. I appreciate your tips on breathing.. I even tried it. For 6000 the other day... I cannot do it. I can do the movement, but that breath could not be more ineffective. I felt like i was hyperventilating. Rapid breathing like that, in my opinion, is a trigger for our brains that something is wrong. The only time we do breathe like that on land, is if there is something wrong. Our breathing in the water actually needs to slow down. We need to eliminate extra movement..IE Head swings to breathe... Not add more. We need to work on gettin our systems use the oxygen already there, more effectively eliminate the co created, and have higher quality exchanges of the two. Not just MORE (less effective) exchanges. But the fact that you actually got people (on this thread) to think about their breathing is something i have been unable to do. Well done.
As far as supplements go... you are on your own. I am not going down that road here.


daved

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

+1, Dev, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I agree with Tim. Dr. Hall has been pretty flagrant with his misinterpretation of basic laws of physics. He's making things tough on himself by using it to support his good advice on drills and technique.

Not everyone has the background to sift through this stuff. I think it's entirely appropriate for the physicists and engineers to weigh in on the differences between inertia and propulsion and for the physiologists and biochemists to weigh in with their thoughts on supplements.

One of the reasons I read Slowtwitch is because I know that scientific claims will be challenged and reviewed, most of the time in a fairly civil manner. Dr. Hall's original post would have been met with nothing but fawning on many other message boards, drills, supplements, physics and all. His reception in an academic conference would be much the same as he got on Slowtwitch, minus the extremes in rudeness and adoration.

Mr. Hall,

First of all, thanks for posting and sharing your experience with all of us. I tried the breathing technique you recommended during my swim this morning and had a couple of questions. I was finishing what qualifies for a long workout for me (3500yds) and thought as I was getting short of breath I would try the breathing method you have recommended. At first it felt very odd, almost like I was hyperventilating. I would take a breath to the right, rotate while exhaling, then immediately breath to the left, wait a stroke, then breath again to the left, rotate, immediately breath to the right, etc. First question, am I doing what you suggested or have I misinterpreted it? I'm still evaluating the results of how it worked for me this morning. On the one hand, I was concentrating so much on the breathing that I wasn't paying as much attention to my strokes as I would have liked to. On the other hand, I didn't feel out of breath either, but I'm not sure if it was from more O2 or being distracted by the process or both (so much of this is still mental for me). If I was performing the technique correctly, does it get more difficult the higher stroke count one has? I have a fairly low stroke count I think (say 15-16 per 25 yards?) but when I really sprint the number goes up, and so getting those two breaths in back to back really has one breathing/exhaling quickly. Any advice/thoughts? Thanks again!

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Life IS an endurance sport. Finish Well
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 I also tried this breathing technique the other night in the pool.

Breathe Left, exhale while rotating, breathe right, stroke, breathe right, exhale while rotating, breathe left.

I think that is the pattern that is described.

I found that I too was concentrating a LOT on breathing and my stroke rapidly went South. I'm sure that with enough practice it could become pretty natural.

I am not sure that I need all that air though! Using my trusty SportCount Chrono, I WAS able to determine my times using this technique were slower, probably due to stroke breakdown.
I have been a one breath every three guy. My swim coach is working with me to try breathe, breathe/pause & switch sides/breathe breathe. This offeres MORE chances at breathing than 1/3 (although less than 1/2) and certainly not as much as Dr. Hall's technique. However, for me it seems to offer the best combo of 1) ability to focus on stroke 2) O2 uptake 3) ability to maintain breathing rhythm.

Later in the season when I get into some harder sets, if I find I am lacking O2 I may reach back to this technique.

If you want to learn technique, use the opposite of paddles, fist gloves.

So I understand the importance of stroke..but do you have any tips to help keep my legs from sinking?

Hi Gary,

I've been reading with great interest. I'm definitely in your camp re: head position. Certainly that's an aspect of technique practiced a lot by swimmers like Eamon Sullivan and Libby Trickett and the benefits can be pretty easily demonstrated (disclaimer: at low speed).

I've got a couple of queries regarding the 2/3 breathing.

As many people have pointed out, no elite swimmer uses the technique you describe. I'm curious, do you see this as a technique that is good for "older" swimmers (eg you like it, you're in your late 50's), or is it something that you think would make Grant Hackett or Michael Phelps faster?

Every breath you take breaks your body position and slows you down. Obvioulsy the stronger you are and the better your technique the less this occurs but it still happens. It's why I'm sure Gary only took 1 breath per 50 free (and probably ~5 or 6 over 100). It's why Brett Hawke coaches his swimmers to not breath at all (Brett coaches the olympic mens 50 free champion). In fact Brett used to ask people swimming against him how many breaths they were going to take over the 50 and if they didn't respond "none" he would reply "Then you're going to lose".
Back to the point... Obviously you feel that the loss of drive / streamline is offset by the benefit of taking the extra breaths. Now I can see that if you're a swimmer with years of experience with good knowledge of how to hold your body position that you could use 2/3 technique and try to hold you core together. But don't you think that encouraging weaker swimmers to take extra breaths will prevent them from ever learning how to be stable in the water and to hold correct body position? I mean weaker swimmmers already "wallow" in the water won't this make things worse because they'll be rolling from side to side.
In my experience when elite swimmers are training, they'll generally breath bilaterally or every 4 breaths when doing easy work. It's only when doing "hard" training that they'll revert to breathing every 2. They swim bilaterally or every 4 during "easy training" so they can work on their stability and eveness of stroke. Would you recommend people just save you technique for racing / hard training or is it something that you advocate doing all the time?

Obviously everyone can test it for themselves and I'm sure they will. I was just wondering if you wanted to clarify where you think this should be applied or if you're suggesting that all swimmers of all levels should be swimming all pool and open water training and racing using a 2/3 breathing technique.

Dear Mouli,

Brett Hawke is right. One shouldn't breathe in the fifty. It is short enough (approx 20 seconds) that one can swim the entire race with availbale ATP. Beyond the 50, different story. Don't breathe and you begin to build up lactic acid.
Aside from the first stroke off the start and turn, Phelps breathes every stroke in the 100 fly and every cycle in the 100 free, as do most hundred freestylers. And who is the fastest finisher in swimming? Phelps has perhaps the highest VO2 max of any swimmer yet he chooses to breathe every stroke. He also has the lowest lactate levels and the fastest finish.
Do we slow down when breathing? Absolutely, it slows our stroke rate and when sprinting that counts. But for all other longer events, we want to sustain speed and our stroke rate is slower.
One needs to practice the technique in order to feel comfortable with so much breathing, but even if it doesn't speed up your swim (it may not) but allows you to enter the bike with less lactate and feeling less spent, it is worth it.
Many swimmers train aerobically (breath holding) to prepare their bodies for racing. This is good. But come race time with maximal exertion, 02 demand goes up and breathing every cycle may not be enough.
Getting older and not being aerobically fit as I once was, requires that i use techniques that help. This is one that does for me. It may not be for everyone, but is worth trying.

Gary Sr.

Dear Just Old,

Mark Foster is a very good friend of mine and Gary jr's. I have watched him often in practice and in racing. The frame around 1:40 is when he is looking up to find the wall. The rest of the time his head is down. Plus he is swimming slow for the camera.
Notice how Hackett breathes back and to the side, not to the side. When the head comes back down, the chin is tucked down, then it rises slightly as the front hand extends out. But overall, the head is still down.
The most impressive fact in both videos, which I keep trying to emphasize, is the extraordinarily high elbow positions of both of these great swimmers.
In golf, the famous three most important rules are 1)head down 2) head down and 3)head down. In swimming the three rules are 1) high elbow 2) high elbow and 3) head down. The purpose...it reduces forward drag REMARKABLY. Try the demonstration drill i described some time earlier on this thread. If that doesn't convince you, nothing will.

Respectfully,

Gary Sr.

Hi Gary.

I wonder if a swimmer's cadence wouldn't be a determiner in the 2/3 breathing you suggest?

There is a fixed amount of time that it takes for any individual to breath during a sustained effort at their Lactate Threshold. Whatever that respiration rate is, it wouldn't make sense to attempt to breath any faster. If someone is taking a stroke every .4 seconds then it might not behoove them to try back-to-back breaths.

When you breath this way over a 1500 race distance, what is your stroke cadence?

Another question about the 'freeway' concept.

Yes, we are bricks. The amount of drag and therefore the rate of deceleration we encounter is exponentially related to velocity. You cited the high speeds of Gary Jr. where he swims about 5mph. For those of us who swim at 2mph the drag and therefore the rate of deceleration is lower.

At what speeds does it make a significant difference? I'm asking because there's a metabolic cost to constant propulsion. I find that I do quite well with a short glide in my stroke because the improvement in efficiency seems greater than the loss of velocity.

thanks for the tips

Dear Tim,

I believe that the error is being made when you assume that no force is being applied at the beginning of the stroke (when the arm is outstretched). At this point in the stroke (where it is more lift than drag) there is considerable propulsive force being exerted. As the hand tilts down and moves further back on the body, the force is more drag than lift. But the arm in this position contributes hugely to the forward drag of the entire body, slowing it.
Hope this helps you to understand why the two arms are propelling simultaneously underwater for some period of time.

Gary Sr.

Let me be quite sure I understand this. Your argument is that an outstretched hand with the palm facing the bottom of the pool and moving forward through the water (from a combination of swimmer velocity through the water and "reaching") creates "lift" which results in propulsive force that results in forward acceleration?