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Stretching is not useful?
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Came across this video on youtube, titled "Stretching is making you slower: the science"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1wjkdGouMk

I'm curious to hear coaches and people with sports science backgrounds thoughts on this(and anyone else, of course!)
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [gregnemes] [ In reply to ]
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For the most part, the video shows evidence thats been around for over a decade or more and is not necessarily popular knowledge. This video, however, is hardly a comprehensive review on the role flexibility training has on overall athletic performance (even in cycling). The video limits its focus on stretching with regard to:
  • pre-cycling stretching and performance
  • post-workout muscle soreness; which unless your completely inexperienced or out of shape for the first few weeks of a return to training has little to do with the low-impact, concentric-only nature of cycling.
  • injury prevention: acute injury ok; chronic injuries, see low back pain on next point
  • low back flexibility/pain and aggressive cycling position (notice how he kind of danced around hamstring flexibility, which is the actual the limiter of our positions and more behind the cause for Low Back Pain rather that low back extensor flexibility)

For that last point flexibility training is important, particularly in the hamstrings for cyclists if you want/have a more aggressive position and/or have LBP on or off the bike. Also, hip flexors can get very tight in cyclists (particularly the psoas), which in conjunction with "loose" hamstrings causing an imbalanced pelvis, can lead to low back pain. A balanced hip-down flexibility routine can in fact help that problem.

Indeed, most if not all of what he says is pretty much true, but listen to the circumstances he is offering. They are very specific. The title of the video was obviously made to get people to watch it, and it does control the facts and statistics to show what he's trying to say, but it lacks the comprehension to provide a full picture with relation to your title "stretching not useful". He doesn't ever go over how to actually improve position, have more aggressive position, prevent back pain, etc., and mentions yoga as an afterthought and could have elaborated also on the counterpoints of possible benefits of other types of flexibility training or even eccentric weight training (a whole 'nother can of worms, but does has influences on flexibility).

The most important thing he said in the whole video was at the very end:

"If you enjoy stretching, do it. If you don't enjoy stretching, then don't do it. As long as you're not stretching right before you ride, it'll probably have very little effect on your cycling [performance that day]."

I, personally, would still recommend even a light flexibility routine as a separate exercise routine. It may not help your cycling if you do it right before, but as a separate workout it will only help for the other 20-23 hours of the day you're not on the bike, and may even improve life on the bike anyway.

Matt Leu, M.S. Kinesiology
San Pedro Fit Works, Los Angeles, CA
Endurance Athlete and Coach
Consistency/time=results
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [gregnemes] [ In reply to ]
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I am sure a lot of people don't but I agree with Sutto on most of his blogs... I get regular massages but never stretch and have had only a handful of niggle injuries over the years.

https://blog.trisutto.com/stretching-for-triathlon/
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [ironmatt85] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
In Reply To:
ironmatt85 wrote:
For the most part, the video shows evidence thats been around for over a decade or more and is not necessarily popular knowledge. This video, however, is hardly a comprehensive review on the role flexibility training has on overall athletic performance (even in cycling). The video limits its focus on stretching with regard to:
  • pre-cycling stretching and performance
  • post-workout muscle soreness; which unless your completely inexperienced or out of shape for the first few weeks of a return to training has little to do with the low-impact, concentric-only nature of cycling.
  • injury prevention: acute injury ok; chronic injuries, see low back pain on next point
  • low back flexibility/pain and aggressive cycling position (notice how he kind of danced around hamstring flexibility, which is the actual the limiter of our positions and more behind the cause for Low Back Pain rather that low back extensor flexibility)

For that last point flexibility training is important, particularly in the hamstrings for cyclists if you want/have a more aggressive position and/or have LBP on or off the bike. Also, hip flexors can get very tight in cyclists (particularly the psoas), which in conjunction with "loose" hamstrings causing an imbalanced pelvis, can lead to low back pain. A balanced hip-down flexibility routine can in fact help that problem.

Indeed, most if not all of what he says is pretty much true, but listen to the circumstances he is offering. They are very specific. The title of the video was obviously made to get people to watch it, and it does control the facts and statistics to show what he's trying to say, but it lacks the comprehension to provide a full picture with relation to your title "stretching not useful". He doesn't ever go over how to actually improve position, have more aggressive position, prevent back pain, etc., and mentions yoga as an afterthought and could have elaborated also on the counterpoints of possible benefits of other types of flexibility training or even eccentric weight training (a whole 'nother can of worms, but does has influences on flexibility).

The most important thing he said in the whole video was at the very end:

"If you enjoy stretching, do it. If you don't enjoy stretching, then don't do it. As long as you're not stretching right before you ride, it'll probably have very little effect on your cycling [performance that day]."

I, personally, would still recommend even a light flexibility routine as a separate exercise routine. It may not help your cycling if you do it right before, but as a separate workout it will only help for the other 20-23 hours of the day you're not on the bike, and may even improve life on the bike anyway.

Very nice summary with accurate points! Really like the fact that you metion eccentric training. I think this is an often overlooked way of improving flexibility.
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [gregnemes] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Stretching

I invoke Arthur C Clarke's Fourth Law: "For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert."

****

I have gone back & forth on stretching; first I did it regularly, then not so much, now I'm on it again

Yoga, on the other hand is a way different story. I guess you could say I do something very much like Yoga ... well, it's like Yoga in a way that Scrambled Eggs are like Crème Brûlée

As a Surfer, I should like Yoga ... I mean it's all about Balance and slowness and Calm and so on; which is kinda how I am, really ... but once I get in a class or whatever and I try it ... I'm all like: "Okay, I can touch my toes. Great! Can we move on here? I haven't got all day! What's next? Move it people!"

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [ironmatt85] [ In reply to ]
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Just wondering if you have a light flexibility routine program that you can share? Thanks.
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [gregnemes] [ In reply to ]
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Years ago I developed a condition that prevented me from finishing any race longer than a 1/2 marathon. In fact I DNFed a few of them. I would get sharp pain in the back of both knees every run. I went to a PT who dx'ed tight hamstrings and recommended a daily stretching routine (the door frame stretch). Since that day I've done innumerable 1/2 IMs, IMs, marathons and ultramarathons, all with no knee pain issues. Does stretching work? It does for me.
Last edited by: squid: Dec 13, 19 9:42
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [squid] [ In reply to ]
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squid wrote:
Years ago I developed a condition that prevented me from finishing any race longer than a 1/2 marathon. In fact I DNFed a few of them. I would get sharp pain in the back of both knees every run. I went to a PT who dx'ed tight hamstrings and recommended a daily stretching routine (the door frame stretch). Since that day I've done innumerable 1/2 IMs, IMs, marathons and ultramarathons, all with no knee pain issues. Does stretching work? It does for me.

I had a very similar experience with repeated injury sans stretching and once I started stretching my calves all was good again.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Stretching is not useful? [gregnemes] [ In reply to ]
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no sports scientist here, just an average guy.

if i train, i must stretch. muscles will pull on joints giving pain in my knees, and my left hamstring will get to the point where it is painful. stretching regularly (once a day) will make all these little problems essentially disappear.

stretching makes me faster because if i didnt, i couldnt go racing at all.

80/20 Endurance Ambassador
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [gregnemes] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in the stretching camp post workout and post workout could be hours after a workout.

Several short periods of stretching (five minutes or less) work as well for me as a half hour straight, maybe better.

Let's not overlook the feedback that light stretching can provide. Knowing what's tender is helpful for recovery and injury prevention.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [IT] [ In reply to ]
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It's going to be a case by case basis to a certain degree

1) Some athletes present with poor mobility and need some tissues elongated to maximize performance....some stretching is likely in order

2) Don't try to be Gumby

CB
Physical Therapist/Endurance Coach
http://www.cadencept.net
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [PTinAZ] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with all these. I think of it like, I want to avoid strength imbalances (Major ones cause me pain), I want to have good mobility, and good range of motion / strength at ranges of motion necessary to do my activities.

To the extent stretching helps that, I do it. If a stretch doesn’t help achieve that, I don’t do it.
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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stretching makes me faster because if i didnt, i couldnt go racing at all.


This
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [DennisvdB] [ In reply to ]
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DennisvdB wrote:
Really like the fact that you mention eccentric training

I'm not wealthy enough to be "eccentric" so I'm stuck with being "weird"

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [gregnemes] [ In reply to ]
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Every now and then somebody comes up with uselessness of stretching. When I was working as a personal trainer we joked with clients and among each other that everything we teach now somebody will "prove" us totally wrong few years down the road. I just gotta love that "if it feels good do it". If it feels good is it then useless? I guess some things are but I wouldn't say that for stretching.
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [squid] [ In reply to ]
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squid wrote:
Years ago I developed a condition that prevented me from finishing any race longer than a 1/2 marathon. In fact I DNFed a few of them. I would get sharp pain in the back of both knees every run. I went to a PT who dx'ed tight hamstrings and recommended a daily stretching routine (the door frame stretch). Since that day I've done innumerable 1/2 IMs, IMs, marathons and ultramarathons, all with no knee pain issues. Does stretching work? It does for me.

My hamstrings get very tight after the bike leg

I googled door frame stretch it looks like a stretch for the chest

What stretch is it you do please?
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [gregnemes] [ In reply to ]
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gregnemes wrote:
Came across this video on youtube, titled "Stretching is making you slower: the science"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1wjkdGouMk

I'm curious to hear coaches and people with sports science backgrounds thoughts on this(and anyone else, of course!)

I'm pretty sure stretching before a bike ride is pointless.

Stretching at other times - to become more flexible so as to reduce injury or allow a more aero position is probably good.

But I'm just some random guy - no back up other than one person's experience.


http://www.jt10000.com/
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [gregnemes] [ In reply to ]
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My cats, most dogs I've seen, stretch when they stand up following a nap, or after several minutes of staring at me / attempted willing me to feed them. I'm glad I don't need to try to convince them to stop stretching.
:-)

To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [gregnemes] [ In reply to ]
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Flexibility is what reduces injuries. The best time to improve flexibility is after muscles and joints have warmed up, not before.

Stretching before exercise is like starting your car on a cold day and immediately gunning your engine at redline rpms.

Stretch after you are done, not before you start.

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=hamstring+stretch+in+doorway

In fairness there is a very popular chest stretch known as the “door frame stretch”.
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
squid wrote:
Years ago I developed a condition that prevented me from finishing any race longer than a 1/2 marathon. In fact I DNFed a few of them. I would get sharp pain in the back of both knees every run. I went to a PT who dx'ed tight hamstrings and recommended a daily stretching routine (the door frame stretch). Since that day I've done innumerable 1/2 IMs, IMs, marathons and ultramarathons, all with no knee pain issues. Does stretching work? It does for me.


My hamstrings get very tight after the bike leg

I googled door frame stretch it looks like a stretch for the chest

What stretch is it you do please?

There are several ways to stretch hamstring. My favorite one is to sit on a chair, put my foot up on a small stool, knee slightly bent, toes pointing up. Lean slowly forward, don't hold your breath and don't bend your back. Lean forward just to feel the stretch, it must not be painful, just a pleasant feeling in the hamstring.
I googled the door frame stretch for hamstring, personal I don't like it. My legs always go numb and tingling in that position due to the blood drain.
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [gregnemes] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in the no stretching club. After stretching religiously every day for over 30 years, I started reading these anti stretching articles. Cool, I'm all for dropping something that I don't need and sucks time. So I just quit. 4 years ago now. Nothing has changed. Interestingly, several week after I quit my daily stretching routine, I demolished my masters 5K PR. I also set my masters marathon PR, and won a 50K that year.

Athlinks / Strava
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
Flexibility is what reduces injuries.

There's almost no evidence that this is correct despite what you've been told. Appropriate mobility is a different story.
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Re: Stretching is not useful? [RoostBooster] [ In reply to ]
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I’m a mesomorphic former swimmer turned triathlete who has avoided stretching for 50 years. I have quoted the “stretching doesn’t help” mantra for the last decade... partially as an excuse for not including a flexibility program in my highly detailed training program. I do suspect that increasing range of motion and thus position will make me a more efficient athlete, but my perception of muscle tightness is relieved by a 10 mi warm-up, and have enjoyed a relatively injury-free career. The truth is that I feel pretty bad all day and night, except when I’m swimming, biking, or running! Yoga seems like it might help me. (I’m pretty impatient and tense). It can’t be that bad, even the Sufferlandrians are doing it ;-)
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